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Oops, darn it...

I flew only one year with amphips out of Sheldon Point in the 185. No bells, whistles, lights or voices.. Two mirrors. Simple stuff, what are you landing on, and where are your wheels. 350 and some landings that summer. Don't dumb it down be a PIC.
 
My main gear... I can only see the florescent orange from the cockpit when the gear is up... nose wheels are either gone (gear down).. or up in clear sight just by looking out the windows. Yes.. I have to slip my shoulder harness off for 10 seconds to check the passenger side.. as I'm two wide...but a routine that will keep my safe for years to come.
 

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Amphibious operations by their very nature include two transitions, not just one, between the wolds of air, land and sea. Until someone comes up with a foolproof procedures for amphibious operations, the only way to prevent these mishaps is to cock some sort trigger mechanism to get the pilot to stop, to clear his mind of everything trashing around in there, and to think about what he's transition from and to before doing it.

A bedtime story for amphib fliers.

A young lad who lived near the sea was on his lunch-break watching birds circling his father's freshly plowed field. The sky-critters regularly swooped down and carried off worms. He was awestruck, and decided he wanted to fly, too. He built a flying machine, took to the skies, and even came back down and survived contact with the ground. When he related his achievement to all the disbelievers, he had to quickly think of a word that would best describe his return to Earth. So being a product of a seafaring culture, it seemed natural to adopt the verb “to land” his forefathers used to label the transitioning from their liquid world to the solid. And so the word “land” and “landing” was adopted to label transitioning from the gaseous world to the solid, too.

The new term was perfect. It was well known and used, and conveyed the intended concept well. But then one day he saw an albatross sailing the wind over the seashore, so graceful and detached, searching for that perfect inflight-meal to swoop down on. God's magnificent creature could not only alight on the water but take to the air, too. Once again he felt empty. Something was still missing from his life. He kept scratching his head. How could he do that with his flying machine?

It didn't take him long to figure out that if were to trade-in his wheels for a boat under his airplane, he could do that too. But then he saw his model in nature, the gooney-bird, attempt a landing on the shore, a disastrous feat at best. So he realized that the transition from the air to solid ground for his man-made water-fowl needed some sort of improvement over nature's model. So he decided to put wheels under the boat his airplane sat on, and test flew his invention. Though he didn't know it, proto-amphibious aviation was born.

It didn't take long before he was transitioning not just from the ground to the air and back, but also from the sea to the the air and back by putting on and removing the wheels - the first changeover - from his flying machine . But then one day after he took off from the sea, the wind picked up and the waves were just too high to risk a water “landing.” He had no choice: he had to land on the shore, and gave a performance not unlike his model in nature.

After his hospital recovery, he rebuilt his airplane, but this time he rigged a contraption between the boat and its wheels he could now activate to lower or retract his wheels at will. His ecstasy reached new heights when he realized he could not only take off from the water and land on the shore, but the other way around, too. Moreover, he could even go, albeit slowly, from the beach into the water and also back onto the beach. He called his creation the “amphibious” airplane.

Crowds gathered at events he organized to show-off his invention. Flight after flight, he successfully transitioned between the three realms, solid, gas, liquid, always referring to the transition from the gaseous world as the “landing.” Successfully, that is until his self-contentment flooded his thoughts and he forgot to ask the most basic of operational questions, “what is it that I want to do?” Had he asked that fundamental question, he would have heard the answer “to transition from the air to the water.” But he didn't. Instead, he came up with a new crowd-pleaser when he flipped over in the water with his wheels extended.

He had much time in his cast to meditate on the underlying causes of his mishap. “Was all that effort to rig a multi-realm 'landing' gear wasted?” - he pondered while being stretched a little taller in traction. “And how about a reverse situation: landing on the beach with the wheels retracted?” He had already tried that once and didn't like that either. His meditation paid off. He recalled instructing his students to obey his commands, including implementing his decision to touch down or not after assessing the size of waves. He remembered one foggy day when he was happy with the surface conditions and gave his student the command, “Land!” His student then promptly executed a go-around. When questioned, the student replied, he didn't see any “land” but figured his instructor must have spotted terra-firma in the fog he didn't want to crash into.

And so he concluded that the words “land” and “landing,” retained in his subconscious from his seafaring ancestors' vocabulary and so successful in land-only operations was responsible for his moment of absentmindedness when was ready to “land.” So he decided to put an end to the use of that term and came up with a foolproof one. He coined a new word for transitioning from the air to the water that would unmistakably remind him what what environment he's transitioning to.

Unfortunately, he didn't survive his injuries, so no one knows what that term was. However, by studying other languages, amphibious aviators have been working on phraseology that would trigger the right mindset, a word that would fire at the appropriate time and point to the correct procedure for the planned transition. Maybe someone from supercub.org already has a few ideas...

Without suggesting any, let me point out that in French, to land on water is called “amerrire,” (as opposed to “atterrir” for landing a land) from the root word “mer,” sea (which incidentally but intuitively begins with a letter that looks like waves). Other languages might have even more intuitive words to trigger the right procedure. Either way, the first step ought to be a total break away from the word “land” and all of its forms whenever other than land-only operations are contemplated. Until then, pictures such as the above will, unfortunately, continue to remind us of the need to add two words in big red letters to end of before takeoff and before landing checklists: STOP!... THINK!

Goodnight kids. Dream safely.
 
Dave and Pete

Ha, you guys are too funny. I am looking for floats and yes amphibs. I figure I've already done the flip thing once so perhaps I'll be a little more sensitive to the whole "where is the gear for this landing?" concept. That was the first thing the NTSB guy asked.
"Where was your gear"?
When I told him the gear was in the hangar there was a long pregnant pause then he came back with a rather incredulous voice and said, "You mean you flipped one on straight floats"?
At a very serious time it was kinda a funny moment.

We have done so much in terms of man-machine interface, this is an area that I feel we have dropped the ball. In the sailplane community, the airplanes are taken apart, trailered, and reassembled constantly. Many, many accidents have occurred over the years when controls were hooked up backwards or not at all. They have gone to great lengths to fix this human interface such that the controls are now designed in a manner that makes it impossible to hook them up backwards, or that they connect automatically, or that you can't get this pin in unless you have connected the rudder etc. Simply trying to minimize human error. Humans make mistakes. Period. AKA -the recent SWA and Branson. Doctors amputate the wrong limb, etc. It happens and will continue to happen. I sincerely believe we can design the front gear of a amphib float such that it can be landed gear down and NOT result in a flip. My understanding is that the Clamars are less likely to flip than Wipps, and in fact I have heard that the Clamar test pilot has intentionally landed gear down on water just to demonstrate that. If you look at the front gear design on the two floats you can see the difference. Is it the absolute be all end all? No, but I think it is worthy of design consideration. Unfortunately the float market is so small I doubt we will see much innovation there, unless someone builds a new "no flip" float and the insurance rates are soooo much lower it drives the market. Just food for thought.

Bill
 
.....I sincerely believe we can design the front gear of a amphib float such that it can be landed gear down and NOT result in a flip. My understanding is that the Clamars are less likely to flip than Wipps, and in fact I have heard that the Clamar test pilot has intentionally landed gear down on water just to demonstrate that. If you look at the front gear design on the two floats you can see the difference. Is it the absolute be all end all? No, but I think it is worthy of design consideration. Unfortunately the float market is so small I doubt we will see much innovation there, unless someone builds a new "no flip" float and the insurance rates are soooo much lower it drives the market. Just food for thought.

Bill

I know a guy who built his own floats for his Beaver. He had the same idea. So, after giving the project a lot of thought, he built a set of fixed landing gear for the floats. As I recall he had a little ski attached to the gear to help. Well he tried it. Once. The beaver went right up on its nose and stayed there. It was a shallow pond, just the right depth that it didn't go over on it's back.

If any one does develop a landing gear that supposedly will not flip a float plane, someone WILL flip it.
 
I've been waiting for someone to mention a related subject, no one has so I will: I have Datum retractable wheel skis on my experimental. Though I have landed on frozen grass (on purpose, long story) with zero problems, I have not yet landed on dry concrete or asphalt. Why would I do that? If I forget to cycle the wheels down that's why! My gut feeling is it wouldn't want to pitch over, and I'd have ample time to "make that scraping noise go away" by simply lifting off again. So, no real problem other then a little accelerated wear on the ski bottoms. Anyone land a ski plane wheels up on dry asphalt, is so, what happens?

My gear is electrically controlled, after much thought I labeled the panel switches (one for each side) SKIS and WHEELS. That seemed the most idiot proof, so far so good.
 
My gear is electrically controlled, after much thought I labeled the panel switches (one for each side) SKIS and WHEELS. That seemed the most idiot proof, so far so good.

I would be an accident waiting to happen on amphibs. And your eyes looking at the gear would seem like the best safety device. But my gear selector would say BOAT for gear up and TRUCK or JEEP for wheels down.

Glenn
 
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Have landed a C-180 on wet grass with straight (Federal) skis, even taxied - if that helps. It's a nonevent.
 
I know a guy who built his own floats for his Beaver. He had the same idea. So, after giving the project a lot of thought, he built a set of fixed landing gear for the floats. As I recall he had a little ski attached to the gear to help. Well he tried it. Once. The beaver went right up on its nose and stayed there. It was a shallow pond, just the right depth that it didn't go over on it's back.

If any one does develop a landing gear that supposedly will not flip a float plane, someone WILL flip it.

Yep, it's possible to flip anything, but is also possible to land wheels-down.
A bud is an aero-engineer & built his plane & ampibs from scratch. Here is a copy/paste from last Sep't. BCFA N-letter:
Safe wheels-down amphibs!
**This is an email reply to Stephen Ratzlaff of the Washington Seaplane Pilots Ass’n.**
Mike Hirshfield here. I’m the Membership Chairman of the BC Floatplane Association. I’m also a private pilot with 60 years flying experience. I’ve been an amphib pilot for 19 years.

In response to your invitation to comment on amphib safety flying…on your subject of wheels down water landings of amphibious aircraft.

The certified amphib aircraft are locked in to some form of check. Example.. a checklist, voice recorders, lights, buzzers, mirrors, visual retraction flags.. all help but are not foolproof. The homebuilt aircraft on the other hand, would be free to design safety into their machine, to not flip. I have done this with my aircraft. The solution is an engineering one.

My amphib is a homebuilt, so I could design it so that it would not flip at landing speeds with wheels down on the water. There was no intention of testing this feature but test it I did. Twice. Raven Lake in Pitt Meadows and Schoolhouse Lake in the Cariboo (both within BC). A great lot of spray and a very quick stop was the result. And a pilot that felt very stupid was all that happened on both occasions.

My aircraft is a stretched TriPacer with a designed wing and a systems designed automotive engine. The floats were specifically designed so as the aircraft they carried, at landing speeds with wheels down, would not flip. However, there was much more than designing the floats. The entire aircraft’s centre of gravity, the distance from the fuselage to the floats, extra floatation in the front of the floats, fuel carried in the floats rather than the wings, the length of the fuselage, the design and type of the spray rails, the size of the floats (2500’s), many items contributed to a safe landing amphibious float plane with wheels down.
The two landings I made with wheels down – one was with two people up front and the other was just with the pilot, which would be maximum forward CG.
With passengers in the rear there would be much less likelihood of a flip. The large slotted flaps (designed by Abbott and Doenhoff in the Theory of Wing Sections) contribute greatly to the low landing speeds in the 45 mph range.
Some details of floats that don’t flip.
# 1 – Wheel extension – 5 1/2 inches
# 2 – Compound spray rails
# 3 – Fuel tanks out of the wings and into the floats, located forward of the step
# 4 – Flaps – large slotted flaps with a control lip or fowler-type flaps
# 5 – Float struts – only long enough to give 30 inches prop clearance to the water
# 6 – A lightweight three-blade variable pitch propeller with a minimum diameter of 80 inches
# 7 – A very gentle chine and keel line to give more floatation to the forebody
# 8 – CG (centre of gravity) located ten inches forward of the step. CL (centre of lift) – a line drawn 12 degrees forward of the step should cross the centre of lift located at 25% from the front of the wing cord. (Angle of incidence) – minus 2 degrees for the floats, plus 2 degrees for the wings, plus 3 degrees for the wings with poor or no flaps.

Stephen, thank you for this opportunity to comment on your topic of flying safety. I too hope other pilots will have successful wheels down landings on water.

 
IDENTIFICATION
Date: 18-JAN-14
Time: 17:55:00Z
Regis#: N3668N
Aircraft Make: PIPER
Aircraft Model: PA12
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: ZEPHYRHILLS
State: Florida
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING, GEAR COLLAPSED, ZEPHYRHILLS, FL
 
Note from the pilot. Yes the left gear took a very hard landing from a recovery of wing high from a quartering tail wing 15 gusting, but all 3 bungees should not have failed. I think the safety cable cut them being incorrectly positioned, not held away properly by the little spring.

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!
 
Cut or snapped?

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!
 

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All 3 bungees were seperated at the top exactly the same and same spot where safety cable seperated.

Sent from my SM-N900P using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
Notice scratches. From safey cable???

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I would agree with mike, note different lengths on outer covering threads if cut they should all be the same length.
DENNY
 
Well try cut a bungee streached over a pole that has twisted fiber elastics and see if it comes out perfectly straight.

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!
 
The bungees should take full bottom out without breaking. I am convinced the safety cable cut them. Watch out all you guys that the safety cable is routed correctly and is held properly in place by the spring. Also who has had a safety cable break?

Sent from my SM-N900P using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
The bungees should take full bottom out without breaking. I am convinced the safety cable cut them. Watch out all you guys that the safety cable is routed correctly and is held properly in place by the spring. Also who has had a safety cable break?

Sent from my SM-N900P using SuperCub.Org mobile app
there is NO BOTTOM OUT... that was kinda what the safety cable was for, and you broke that and KEPT stretching bungiees till they snapped.... you are looking for someone else to blame for your poor driving.....
 
I am fully aware of my skills deficit and came down more than hard on the left gear during a ground loop. I am not blaming the gear failure for my bad driving. I just don't think lts possible to streach the bungees till they break as the gear only moves so far. Please don't think this is me trying to justify why I broke my plane. I am pretty clear on that. I ground looped aniclockwise with the left wing way high and allready damaged the right on the ground.

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I copy that if the safety cable broke on the outset from slamming the gear down, but would the gear then travel to its folded position bent up under the plane then return if the bungees are still intact. I still can't buy that they can't streach that much and think the safety cable cut them.

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!
 
You guys are turning the thread into a one-accident discussion with two sides who are never going to agree with each other:
Maybe one of the mechanical / repair forums would be a better place ....


Meanwhile::::::


IDENTIFICATION
Date: 16-JAN-14
Time: 16:53:00Z
Regis#: N9496D
Aircraft Make: PIPER
Aircraft Model: PA18
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: BURNET
State: Texas
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING, NOSED OVER AND STRUCK THE PROP, BURNET, TX
 
You guys are turning the thread into a one-accident discussion with two sides who are never going to agree with each other:
Maybe one of the mechanical / repair forums would be a better place ....


Meanwhile::::::


IDENTIFICATION
Date: 16-JAN-14
Time: 16:53:00Z
Regis#: N9496D
Aircraft Make: PIPER
Aircraft Model: PA18
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: BURNET
State: Texas
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING, NOSED OVER AND STRUCK THE PROP, BURNET, TX
 
Not a Cub, but it is a popular tail-dragger.



IDENTIFICATION
Date: 01-FEB-14
Time: 23:45:00Z
Regis#: N5271X
Aircraft Make: CHAMPION
Aircraft Model: 7GCBC
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: PALMER
State: Alaska
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT WENT OFF THE RUNWAY AND NOSED OVER, PALMER, ALASKA
 
Not the problem you would think of with an amphib...


IDENTIFICATION
Date: 30-JAN-14
Time: 18:08:00Z
Regis#: N86BK
Aircraft Make: AVIAT
Aircraft Model: A1 HUSKY
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: PORTLAND
State: Oregon
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT LANDED WITH A TOW BAR ATTACHED TO THE AMPHIBIOUS FLOATS, PORTLAND, OR
 
Not a Cub, but it is a popular tail-dragger.



IDENTIFICATION
Date: 01-FEB-14
Time: 23:45:00Z
Regis#: N5271X
Aircraft Make: CHAMPION
Aircraft Model: 7GCBC
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: PALMER
State: Alaska
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT WENT OFF THE RUNWAY AND NOSED OVER, PALMER, ALASKA

Was overhead when this one happened. Anyone know anymore details? Seemed to me that he was landing on the gravel strip and never went off of it. Might make more sense though if he was landing on the asphalt and looped off of it. Was a bit unnerving to hear the radio call that a plane had crashed a few thousand feet below me.


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DENTIFICATION
Date: 26-JAN-14
Time: 23:30:00Z
Regis#: N102ZT
Aircraft Make: AVIAT
Aircraft Model:
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: ROSEBURG
State: Oregon
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT ON FINAL COLLIDED WITH TREES, ROSEBURG AIRPORT, ROSEBURG, OR



WHAT ????


IDENTIFICATION
Date: 09-FEB-14
Time: 00:47:00Z
Regis#: N6150V
Aircraft Make: LAKE
Aircraft Model: LA4
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: SEATTLE
State: Washington
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT ON TAXI, GROUND LOOPED AND STRUCK A FENCE, BOEING FIELD, SEATTLE, WA




IDENTIFICATION
Date: 09-FEB-14
Time: 17:24:00Z
Regis#: N72097
Aircraft Make: LUSCOMBE
Aircraft Model: 8
Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: TUCSON
State: Arizona
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING STRUCK A TAXIWAY SIGN AND WENT OFF THE RUNWAY, TUCSON, AZ
 
IDENTIFICATION
Date: 12-FEB-14
Time: 20:00:00Z
Regis#: N83325
Aircraft Make: PIPER
Aircraft Model: PA18

Event Type: Incident
Highest Injury: None
Aircraft Missing:
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: GORDON
State: Nebraska
Country:
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT FORCED LANDED ON A ROAD, NEAR GORDON, NE
 
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