touchdown speed?

[spinner2]

I'm curious what touchdown speed other Cub drivers are using to make wheel landings with a pre-determined touchdown point? About 99% of the time I wheel land my PA-18 and in taking a quick glance at my Garmin 396 ground speed, right at touchdown, it is in the mid 40's. This would be for a no-wind ground speed in MPH at a density altitude of around 3500' most of the time. Airspeed indicator is about 40 mph.

I find that if I get any slower my angle of attack is too high and I just drop down and can make a decent 3-point landing but I much prefer to wheel land.

My Cub is light at about 1100 pounds with 30" tires, has 3" gear, 160 hp O-320 with a 43" pitch Borer, and no VG's.

I did a search first on the subject and couldn't much specifically on touchdown speeds.

 

[mvivion]

Spinner,

Use just a touch of power on your final approach, and wheel land the airplane with the tailwheel just an inch off the ground at the touch. Then roll it up on the mains with forward stick and close the throttle.

Sounds like you are landing plenty slow in any case, though, so you may already be using some power.

MTV

 

[S2D]

,

Use just a touch of power on your final approach, and wheel land the airplane with the tailwheel just an inch off the ground at the touch. Then roll it up on the mains with forward stick and close the throttle.

One of the problems with using that method, is if you do (purposely or accidently) use your brakes, it gives you a slingshot affect and can stick you on your nose in the blink of an eye.

Before you go ballistic on me tho, go out and try it. Just as you are pushing the stick forward and pulling the power off , hit the brakes. 8)
then after you've rebuilt the airplane go out and land it in a true wheel landing with the stick pushing forward as you touch down , then immediately start pulling back as you apply the brakes.

You can make wheel landings and use lots of brakes to come to a stop just as the tail comes down if you do it right, but if you ever touch the brakes while the tail is coming up , you'll go over danm fast.


disclaimer: do not add brakes in any wheel landing, even with an instructor. they won't have time to save you when you go over

 

[Eddy Lewis]

S2D is 100% correct. If you use this method with with the breaks locked at touchdown it will take about 2.5 seconds to do a 180. The landing will be amazingly short, mostly due to the fact that the tail will dig into the ground real well.

 

[mvivion]

Wow!! Sorry guys, I didn't mean to provide misleading instructions--I guess I should have carefully noted that you should NOT LAND WITH THE BRAKES LOCKED :lol: . I kinda thought that was standard procedure in landing airplanes with GOOD brakes, I guess, though I used to land my J-3 on 25 inch Goodyear Airwheels with the brakes locked on beaches all the time. Brakes were so bad you really couldn't tell whether they were "locked" or not :lol:.

So, how much power are you guys talking about using to get yourself on your backs?

As noted, I'm just talking about a tiny bit of power.

I don't "lock the brakes at touchdown", thanks . In fact, I stay off the brakes for just a bit after touchdown.

Brakes, I would point out, are one of the aircraft's controls, and it's my responsibility as pilot in command to ensure I'm NOT standing on the brakes at touchdown. Land with the brakes locked on many surfaces and you'll wind up on your back even without power or forward stick.

So, who said anything about standing on the brakes at touchdown?

And, the point is that IF you use the tail low wheel landing procedure to SLOW the airplane down to MCA BEFORE touchdown, it won't nose over on you, even with properly modulated braking AFTER touchdown.

You can slow the airplane down in the AIR, or you can slow it down on the GROUND. In a "conventional" wheel landing, you're slowing it down on the ground. That's fine in many instances if that's what winds your watch.

But, with a tail low wheel landing, you're slowing the airplane down in the AIR, and thus you don't NEED as much braking action upon touchdown.

Also, if your timing is just a hair off, the airplane has much less tendency to balloon on you or skip, since it's pretty much done flying at the touchdown.

I'll grant you that this requires some participation by the pilot, but it works for a lot of folks.

So, S2D, please tell me how you perform "a true wheel landing with the stick pushing forward as you touch down"??

So, you're at what speed, and sticking the airplane on at that speed by applying nose down elevator?

I presume (correct me if I'm wrong here) that you're landing with the airplane in a level flight attitude?? Tell me more. Not being a smart ass, trying to explore other techniques....

MTV

 

[S2D]

So, S2D, please tell me how you perform "a true wheel landing with the stick pushing forward as you touch down"??

So, you're at what speed, and sticking the airplane on at that speed by applying nose down elevator?

MTV

(Remember the part about try it before you go ballistic???)

Now I know you are a skilled enough pilot to never let it happen to you, and I'm sure you are a competent enough instructor to teach your student never to touch the brakes when they are pushing forward on the stick.
However when you tell someone that technique over the internet, you should also warn them of the compounded affect of accidently touching the brakes or what will happen if the brakes are set up too tight and you use that method. the tail low part is fine, its the rotating the tail up when you touch down that can compound the problem,. If your reflexes are all set to push the stick forward, It takes that much more time to reverse them. If your reflexes are set to start pulling back on the stick after touchdown, accidental use of the brakes can be corrected that much quicker.

Thats not to say I didn't teach students to push forward on the stick as they are slowing down to keep the wheels pinned on the ground, I'm just saying going from tail low to tail high while decelerating leaves you open to more problems than keeping the tail high.


Personally, I wheel land my airplanes about 90% of the time, in a level attitude, and use heavy braking on about 75% of those. I don't have a clue what airspeed I'm using cause I never look. But I wouldn't think of teaching someone to use my technique either.

 

[spinner2]

I was just curious what ground speed others were seeing at touchdown when setting up to wheel land. I'd like to be a little slower at that point but don't seem to be able to keep a level enough attitude if I do. I don't want the tail to touch if I'm landing in a rough place.

My technique is to maintain a little power all the way to touchdown. If I have the big tires on I find I don't need to push the the stick forward to 'stick' the plane to the ground. Rather the inertia required to spin up the big tires takes care of that for me, pitching the nose down slightly and effectively killing lift. If I'm landing off-airport I then start applying the brakes keeping the tail up with brakes and moving the stick fore or aft to keep the attitude I want.

If I'm landing on a paved runway I'll not brake and keep pushing the stick forward until the tail drops and then it is stick back. A conventional wheel landing.

 

[mvivion]

spinner explained the effect of the tail low wheel landing perhaps better than I did.

S2D--I'm not going ballistic, and you are correct on describing things via the internet.

But, as spinner says, with a tail low touch, the tail comes up some by itself with bigger tires anyway.

The only issue with keeping the tail low is that you can't really see ahead (for short guys like me) and your directional control isn't as good due to airflow over the tail somewhat affected by the flaps. Assuming you have flaps and they are deployed, that is.

I guess I just assumed that most folks don't land with their feet on the brakes.

Having said that, a couple of instructors from the other side of the river did that Friday here, on pavement, using your "conventional wheel landing" technique, on one brake.....THat didn't work either, and they wound up performing soil assisted aerobatics....

Like I said, I think staying off the brakes is generally a good idea at touchdown, so there I went making assumptions again.

Our Top Cub is now a hangar queen once more.

MTV

 

[ag-pilot]

landings

I guess I just assumed that most folks don't land with their feet on the brakes.



MTV

Mike, I almost never land without my feet on the brakes, they are much better for directional control than the rudder and unlike the rudder they work all the way to the stop. Some of the roads we fly off would be imposable without brakes.
Dave

 

[StewartB]

I was just curious what ground speed others were seeing at touchdown when setting up to wheel land.

In my 12? It flies at 35. It lands at 40. I wouldn't say I usually carry power. Rather I'd say I do what I need to at the time. I prefer to manage the trade of altitude for speed and if I do it right I don't need to carry power. I find these Pipers exceptionally easy to bleed off excess speed. Decelerate to touchdown.

I almost never 3-point. Tail low wheelers are standard practice.

Stewart

 

[bob turner]

Always a fun discussion. I teach nothing but full stall, then add the wheel landings to fulfill the requirements. The little J3 is light enough to lock wheels with the stock brakes, but the minute the tail comes up the brakes must be released -at least a little bit. I never, ever touch down with the brakes locked.

I have had students discover that wheel landings in a Cub are exceptionally smooth - especially if extra airspeed is carried throughout. Then it takes a long time to get them to start full-stalls again.

No matter what, if the field is short, you want to touch down as slow as possible. For me that is stall speed in ground effect. If the field is soft, I prefer the full stall - hook that tailwheel in the mud first.

Speaking of teaching, anybody got a clue as to why a go-around is part of the taildragger checkout? Do they mean a go-around from a botched touchdown, or just a go-around?

 

[S2D]

I guess I just assumed that most folks don't land with their feet on the brakes.


Like I said, I think staying off the brakes is generally a good idea at touchdown, so there I went making assumptions again.


MTV

Like Ag-Pilot said some of us (maybe not the brightest candles in the pack) do a lot of landings with our feet riding the brakes as we touch down. That's the only way we can keep good directional control on a very narrow road with a deep ditch on both sides.And we probably do land a little tail low, but with the brakes applied, one better be pulling back on the stick as the tail comes up, not pushing forward. I'm not quite as quick on the reflexes as I used to be, so I try to avoid those roads only a foot wider than the wheels in my Snow. Still don't have any problems in the Cessna or SC yet.

but back to the tail low rolling forward, Ive done that a few times and used brakes and I can guarantee you, that tail can whip over pretty fast. Luckily I caught it the couple times I accidently tried it.

 

[Tim]

My thoughts. Every surface and length requires a different technique. Grass, wet grass, short or long, pavement, wind, no wind etc.. My 2+2 has toe brakes, on my home grass strip, I wheel land tail low with my toes just barely on the brakes, the tail comes up, I can see where I'm going and I can make the turnoff to my hangar. A few weeks ago I forgot the runway was wet, real wet, I figured it out at the last second just before I went over the bank, and released the brakes

Tim

 

[mvivion]

ag pilot and S2D,

There I go communicating again. Yes, I keep my feet on the brakes on landings, the point I was trying to make was that I don't STAND on the brakes (ie: apply brake pressure) during the touchdown.

I try not to use brakes in the landing roll if that's practical, but as you guys noted, sometimes brakes are just part of the package.

MTV

 

[StewartB]

Since my brake pedals are in close proximity to my rudder pedals I guess I can say my feet are on my brake pedals about 99% of the time during any flight. I only press the brake pedals when I need to, which isn't very often. All that's nice for discussion, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the question, and NONE of you has answered that question. Let's review.

I'm curious what touchdown speed other Cub drivers are using to make wheel landings with a pre-determined touchdown point?

It's a great question. How about some answers?

SB

 

[S2D]

Since my brake pedals are in close proximity to my rudder pedals I guess I can say my feet are on my brake pedals about 99% of the time during any flight. I only press the brake pedals when I need to, which isn't very often. All that's nice for discussion, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the question, and NONE of you has answered that question. Let's review.

I'm curious what touchdown speed other Cub drivers are using to make wheel landings with a pre-determined touchdown point?

It's a great question. How about some answers?

SB

Well I kinda did Stewart 8)

I don't have a clue what airspeed I'm using cause I never look.

Mike
I usually do have a touch of pressure on my brakes when I land if on a narrow road etc. I like to feel that there is pressure there and I'm not about to hit the ditch because one brake just went low.

 

[S2D]

My technique is to maintain a little power all the way to touchdown. If I have the big tires on I find I don't need to push the the stick forward to 'stick' the plane to the ground. Rather the inertia required to spin up the big tires takes care of that for me, pitching the nose down slightly and effectively killing lift. If I'm landing off-airport I then start applying the brakes keeping the tail up with brakes and moving the stick fore or aft to keep the attitude I want.

By the way Mike, that is pretty similiar to what I use, except in spray planes, you don't get the big tire momentum so I just try to touch down so the wheels touch then start pulling back as I apply more brakes.

 

[StewartB]

If you can't get past the brake topic why not really discuss it? If you want to land short and you're going to need brakes? Dump your flaps upon touchdown. Really want to pin it? Dump them at about 3 feet above the runway. Here's the deal. The next time you do a wheel landing on a nice long strip just maintain a touch of power and full flaps and notice how easy it is to keep the tail up as you roll down the runway. Now retract your flaps and try to keep the tail up. You'll never doubt the value of getting your flaps retracted at touchdown again, especially when you'll need braking and going around isn't an option.

By the way, the 40 mph number I stated is not at touchdown, but on very short final. Gpepperd described the decelerating landing better than anyone I've ever talked to. From final to touchdown the entire sequence should be done in deceleration. If you come up short on your glide slope and need to goose the throttle to hit your spot you've just added distance to your landing. It was recently demonstrated to me by another friend that my airspeed on short final/touchdown is too fast for really short landings. I'll work on improving my technique. I am far from perfect but occasionally I nail a short landing and I like the results.

Stewart

 

[Homerrhoid]

Spinner2;

I usually use a tail-low wheel landing, then push the stick forward a bit. This raises the tail, I can see better, but importantly the wings have less lift and there is more weight on the tires for effective braking. If you land on a rough strip, how many times have you found yourself bouncing and floating? The tail up should reduce any lift in the wings- I also pop the flaps off as soon as I pull power. This also helps to plant the tires on the ground.

I always have my heels on the brakes, and I apply brakes as soon as I think of it- the object of course to stop before you run out of dirt!

In my aeronca champ I had cable brakes that were pretty lousy, and I would sometimes land with the brakes on because I feared not stopping soon enough. The champ had a heavier tail too, so I never felt like I could go up-side down from braking too heavily.

The Ellis Brothers (Nabesna and Gulkana) use the tail wheel low technique followed by raising the tail for their off airport work- at least that's how I remember it.

As for landing speed, mid 40's is about right with my PA-18. My GPS update speed is a little delayed so I'm not really sure exactly how fast I'm going. A great game is to see how slow I can fly in ground effect when there is a brisk wind right down the runway. I have seen 28 mph on the GPS but that's with a significant wind and a lot of power.

One other tid-bit; a pilot speaking in Fairbanks at a safety seminar years ago said a cub can go on its back between 12 and 18 mph; less than 12 mph there isn't enough momentum and above 18 mph the elevator has enough authority to check the rotation tendency. I think those were the numbers he gave, but it gives some food for thought....

 

[Goose]

Interesting topic. Pa-18 160, 1175 lbs, 82-43, ext. flaps, 3" and 31's, no vgs, half tanks. 1800 feet and 40 degrees, light rain. It was breezy today, saw between 30 and 55 around touchdown. 55 was a one way strip. I dont watch the A/S. High 30's seemed average. Somebody with brains will note the correlation with DA, IAS, and GS, I think higher alt. would require more air over the wing to lift same load as sea level. Side note, black bears in 16B are on the berries big time, saw about 30 bears in about an hour this afternoon. Have a good night. Dennis.

 

[StewartB]

Dennis,

We've has multiple bear evenings each of the past three weekends at our 16B cabin. I had a shooter on the porch Friday night but the 500 mag's cylinder was jammed, apparently from being manhandled in the backpack. By the time I got it corrected the bear had disappeared into the woods. BUMMER! :evil:

SB

 

[Goose]

SB, I was over by Beluga the last two days and saw tons of bears and about 5 moose. About one good bear for every 15, but they do need some thinning (personal opinion). I am trying. Dennis.

 

[Torch]

SB, I was over by Beluga the last two days and saw tons of bears and about 5 moose. About one good bear for every 15, but they do need some thinning (personal opinion). I am trying. Dennis.

Goose,

I haven't heard you in a long time on the radios. What are you doing these days?

Don/Torch