• If You Are Having Trouble Logging In with Your Old Username and Password, Please use this Forgot Your Password link to get re-established.
  • Hey! Be sure to login or register!

STOL Techniques-from an Article by Mike Vivion

Good post Cub Special Pilot. As another somewhat unorthadox pilot, what you said makes good sence.

Ground effect should not be feared, but tamed and mastered.

Try this when you get more comfortable Cavy. Find a nice wide runway, preferably grass, and as much cross wind as you feel comfortable with. Do a normal, faster, upwind wing low, crosswind approach to a wheel landing. Stick the upwind wheel on, raise the tail to glue it on, and run the length of the runway holding the downwind main up. Go around and repeat. Reverse landing direction and do it with the other wheel, go around and repeat. And repeat. And repeat..... After you get real comfortable, start doing S turns down the runway on one wheel. Start transitioning the up wind wheel to a slower speed and both mains, and the tail to full stop. Start working with higher crosswind speeds. Repeat, and repeat some more. Try to do this in a low traffic area so that you can get at least 20 to 30 landings per hour.
 
JimC:

If they used the same mechanical advantage as birds, there is a bird skimmer that flys along with its beak in the water. You've probably studied it by now.

Agree on the big birds. Must've been a real rush for the test pilots.
 
STOL Article

Glad the article sparked an interesting and spirited discussion of STOL techniques. Discussion is always healthy.

It's worthy of note that I didn't post this article to this web site. It was originally published in Mountain Pilot, a regular feature of Nortern Pilot Magazine a year or two ago. How it got here, I know not, but it sure doesn't offend me.

This is worthy of note primarily in that the article was intended to be a basic introduction to STOL operations, and is very generic, since it was intended to apply to many pilots and most aircraft.

As one's skills improve (and their courage increases), they will develop specific techniques, some learned "the hard way", some hopefully learned from a competent instructor. Unfortunately, those are hard to find in the world of actual STOL operations, and there are fewer still who will actually get in the back of your airplane and talk you through it. If you find one, reward him or her adequately, and go back regularly for updates and new insights.

As one contributor noted, if you are really serious about STOL, you will be thinking not in terms of 1.3 Vso, but rather, in terms of minus .1 Vso. Then again, if you are really playing this game, you'll realize that airspeed is unreliable at these AOA's. The feel of the airplane is what really counts here, not what it says on the clock. Angle of attack is indeed what makes these things work.

And, by the way, I never claimed to be an engineer, either.

As to operations close to the ground, or on the ground, I am a firm believer in one wheel landings for folks flying tailwheel airplanes, but not so much for the skill building reasons discussed in a couple of posts.

The real value of this maneuver is as a confidence builder. It proves unequivocally to the new taildragger pilot that he or she can make the airplane do precisely what they want it to do, even on one wheel. It is really rewarding to watch a doubting student fly the airplane through a couple of these things, and see their attitude change.

The risk, as was noted, is high, though. I will tell you that every time I do this with a student, the hair on the back of my neck stands on end, but it really is a major confidence builder. Just don't go out there by yourself or on a windy day and give it a shot if you haven't a good bit of experience in tailwheel airplanes. Also note that this is not something I would regularly do with someone, again, it's a confidence building maneuver.

Keep talking about this stuff, keep sharing techniques, and as I tell everyone who I instruct, listen to everything you are told about flying, then think about it carefully, decide if you think it makes any sense. If it seems to make sense, test it, carefully, preferably with an instructor, and if it works, add it to your own bag of tricks.

On the other hand, if it doesn't seem to compute after careful consideration and thought, and perhaps a further clarification, put it away, and go on with your way of doing things or look elsewhere for solutions.

That, by the way, applies to everything I say or write also--or maybe even especially.

Mike Vivion
 
?...on a couple of late-Cretaceous azhdarchid pterodactyls. The smaller of the two -- Quetzalcoatlus species, had a wingspan of about 16 feet and flew at a height of about 3 feet when feeding. The larger -- Quetzalcoatlus northropi, had a wingspan of about 36 feet and flew at a height of about 6-8 feet when feeding.?

Now I arent one of them learned fellers like ya?ll, but I figure ya?ll must be talkin bout them Russian planes...am I right? or am I right?
 
Thanks MD, I?ll take your advice. I?m fortunate in that I live right on the edge of the high desert of So Cal. Or as we like to say...the land of 10,000 dry lakes. Many of these dry lakes are at least 3 miles long by 3 miles wide and most of them with hard flat surfaces. What a fantastic opportunity I have to practice landings in any wind condition that you can imagine. If you cant practice around here, your just not flying. The only problem is that if I screw up, the only other living sole in the neighborhood will be a lizard that?s dragging his empty canteen across the rocks...long walk home.
 
Wow, Mike V.
Sorry to step on your post, stick around dude, we?ve got a hundred questions for you.
This place just keeps getting better and better.
 
Cavy: Having trained several ag pilots in Cubs and having spent the last 33 yrs. in ag flying, let me recommend a couple of things. First, the exercise that MD gave you is one of the first things I start with. If the wind is down the strip, just roll it up on one wheel and then the other and drive it like a wheelbarrow.

After you get the hang of that, start flying the strip at cruise speed at 10 ft. Then go to 5 ft. you'll see that as you get into ground effect, everything starts to smooth out. After a while, 3-5 ft. gets to be a comfort zone. If you hit the ground a few times, so what? Then start doing the same thing at stall plus 20mph. Then start working at stall plus 10 and then 5 and get the feel.

You can actuall roll your wheels across an entire field without much problem, but make sure the grass isn't too tall and there are no hidden boo-boos.

Ground effect flying offers a whole new realm of education for those who don't spent much time there.

Good luck and have fun.

Do I get a puppy now?

murph
 
Mike V.,

Welcome to the site! and I am the one that posted your article to the page, and to be accurate I cut and pasted it from the "husky web site" (Obviously no one was using it for its value there?? (sorry Matt, I couldn't resist!)

I respect all of the posts for their content as to various techniques. You and others made the most accurate comment that it is a "art not a science". Aerodynamics is a Science! (reserved for the learned types) of which many are represented here.

your quote; " listen to everything you are told about flying, then think about it carefully, decide if you think it makes any sense. If it seems to make sense, test it, carefully, preferably with an instructor, and if it works, add it to your own bag of tricks.

On the other hand, if it doesn't seem to compute after careful consideration and thought, and perhaps a further clarification, put it away, and go on with your way of doing things or look elsewhere for solutions. "
is something I hope all that read these discussions abide by as gospel!

Just the other day I had an observer ask me what approach speed I was using to get my PA12 into this little spot of less then 200ft? I told him I hadn't a clue, but the ground speed shown on the GPS when I started the final approach was indicating 39mph, and I still had good aileron control and was comfortable in the seat of my britches!

Knowing the plane you fly, ability to evaluate conditions in the air and make "split second" adjustments is critical to safe flying of any type.

Thanks for your fine example of quality instruction and ability to articulate it to a wide audience.

Tim
 
Reading this thread reminds me of when my Dad was teaching me to fly. We had a J-3 on skis....and out here in South Dakota where we are...the fields are a half mile long.
I couldn't get the flare right....too high...or flying into the ground.
We went around...and before we got down to the flare...he told me to fly as slowly as I could, close to the ground....and KEEP IT FROM LANDING.
A couple of attempts at this tact was all it took...landing improved considerably.
Randy
 
On my previous post I forgot to mention that the pitot tube had a bug in it...so the airspeed indicator didn't read anything....
another thing I'm grateful for now...it would have been just a distraction, and made me more attuned to how the airplane FEELS when its landing.
Randy
 
Yeah Murph, I'd say you get a puppy for that, maybe a healthier one if you teach him how to fly wires and slip branches . . .

Tim -- I'm re-learning flying now since all the instruments work very reliably in quality equipment :wink:

We use the email list over there (list archives will get a couple of months worth), so unless you hit the Husky-L button, and then the list server archives, there's not a lot of public activity to see on the forum, but you guys are certainly welcome to drop into the list archives anytime, they're current with the discussion at hand.
 
Matt,

You said, "I'm re-learning flying now since all the instruments work very reliably in quality equipment". You are right and that points back to the "major difference" between the "Bush plane type" cubs and the "CC-TOP Cub" or the "Husky".

For me it was never a re-learning experience, it is knowing and appreciationg the difference between "simple flying" and "complex flying" in both the equipment and the environment.

Back to topic of this post--- The instructor/ Examiners job is to insure that the "student" can demonstrate that he has grasped the "fundamental principles of flying an aircraft, as enough experience dealing with the "environment" surrounding him and the physical and emotional ability to make "right decisions" that will enable him, (to continue him to safely expand his knowlege through further training, and practical experience)

It has been my experence that there has been an influx of pilots that are being licenced with an excellerated degree of "Head knowledge" but sometimes lacking the practical experience?

I would suggest that "we" can fill that gap if "we" the experienced pilots would avail ourselves more to those young/old newly licensed and eager to learn pilots!

This should be at least in part the vision of this and other "pilot forums".

Ok I am done!

Thanks,

Tim (post 102????)
 
Thanks Murph
I guess I?m going about this sorta backwards, by starting out with dragging it on the edge of the stall. It?s the total lack of nearby and qualified instructors that have forced me to re-invent the wheel on my own.

A quick examples of what ?dragging it? has done for me.

Went for a ride the other day to one of the nearby dry lakes with the ultralite guys. On the fringe of the lake bed is some real soft stuff that?s guaranteed to put you on your nose (my small tires) if you get into it. You can see it from the air by the color change, but not so good once your down low. After touchdown, the runway portion is somewhat narrow because of some ruts on either side of the mains. Made a few passes, lined it up, drug it in just over the top of the soft stuff, plopped it down on the edge of the hard stuff, and just let it roll out with very little effort to keep it between the ruts. Sounds pretty uneventful, don?t it? Couldn?t have done it a few months ago. Couldn?t have predicted where it was going to touchdown, and had no confidence in my ability to keep it aligned.

I?ve got thousands of hours in backhoes. I use to train the new kids at work, now I operate a desk and a pickup truck. I use to enjoy watching the new guys put a few hundred hours on a tractor, get all full of themselves, and think that they were pretty good. No doubt, you know where I?m going with this.
Every time the going got tough (like when they?d rip through a gas main), they?d tuck their tails and call the old guy (me). I?d put the kid in tractor with me and show them how to salvage a bad situation.

I?m trying to always keep in mind that I?m the new kid now!, and to remind myself to not get too cocky. The new kids in the tractors couldn?t see the signs of the hidden hazards, where for me, the signs were as plain as day. That?s how it is for you high time guys, it just comes with seat time and there?s no substitute for experience.

I truly want to thank you guys for taking your time to help us newbies along. One step at a time we?ll get there, and with your help, hopefully avoid some of those ?buried hazards?.

Murph, about them pups. I showed the health inspector some of the posts in the Rants and Raves section and he told me that I?m going to have to get permit to operate a kennel, so it?s going to be a while.
 
Cavy:

It sounds like you're doing a good job. We all started somewhere and none of us has the market cornered on knowledge. I've made my share of mistakes. You could probably teach me a few thing about a backhoe.

Since you mentioned landing in soft places, I'll offer this. If you find yourself in something softer than you intended, always put the stick in your gut and add power. Then use the brakes sparingly until you get it stopped. It becomes a juggling act between brakes and going over on the nose, but at that point, it's your only option. If you make a habit of landing in those places, a good set of tundra tires will be worth their weight in gold, which is about what they cost.

Just tell the health inspector not to worry, my wife and kids have had all their shots and we won't give the pup any fleas. :P

murph
 
Cavy:

Agree with Murph. I forgot to mention above that you can practice those skills without burning avgas at home. Just take the back stick home and sit in the chair and practice the left stick right foot down, neutral, right stick left foot down, until it becomes just as normal as the regular way. Just tell the family you're practicing for the olympics or something . . .

Great job on what you're doing. Would it be that more pilots would do the same (few do).

And Tim: agree, I have flown with my share of marked throttle quadrants.

Matt Mattson
flagold
http://www.treasuresites.com
 
hey cavy,
Sounds like you were at el mirage dry lake bed. i was there about a year ago with my c-170 and i landed in the mud. wasnt prepared for it, like you said you cant really tell the difference at low altitudes. next thing i know cops show up and give me a ticket for "destroying the lake bed." Supposedly its against the law to go into softer parts of the lakebed! after 150 bucks i aint goin there again.
Do you know of any other cool dry lakebeds out in the desert that you can land on.
gotta run
see ya,
Dan
 
STOL

S.T.O.L....Going in and out of the really tight spots has a lot to do with how big your BALLS are. It also helps to have a "fits like an old glove" feel for your airplane. That comes with many hours in all kinds of wind conditions in the same plane. Crash
 
Crash
Ok, I?ll put a big old glove on my balls and give it a try.
Or did I misunderstand you? Ah what the hell, at this point I?ll try anything.
Thanks for the tip.
 
I think he's talking about contraception . . . Oh well, so much for learning technique, just go down to the toy store and buy some big balls and hang them in the cabane V. Works like a charm I guess.

Crash2D2
 
I guess Mr. "No Name Guest" doesn't have any balls at all...post your name if you're gonna razz somebody... :bad-words: !
Concerning STOL ops, having a set of brass ones is important in tight spots especially in varying wind conditions, BUT, in the REALLY tight spots, Obviously the norm is to go in there when the wind is favorable. There are plenty of Goofy specks of real estate that if the wind is strange or wrong, I just don't land. That doesn't happen very often in the Tundra, but in the mountains sheep hunting etc. it suddenly becomes very important. I am thinking specifically of a 280 ft. Sheep strip in the Wrangells (I'll show you this one this summer Tim!) at high elevation...that requires either calm winds or an upslope wind or you just won't make it back off. Screwing around with a hefty set of big donkey balls will just give the Cub Shops (or you if you do it yourself) something to do all winter...
This is NOT to say that I frequently squeeze many droplets of sweat from my clothes after a day's work...
Just know yourself, your equipment, the terrain and the conditions. I know it is back to the basics with a statement like that, but we often need reminding of "The Basics". Most bush pilots get in trouble because they fail/forget/didn't know, one or all of these. And then there shall be no complaining in the streets when you git bit in the ass as a result...
Cheers!
Andy
 
Practicing landing on (and maintaining) any one of the 3 wheels is good when learning where the ground is. Don't recommend landing on the downwind main with much of a crosswind. Practice just putting the tailwheel on and rolling it down the runway without touching the mains. I have extended gear and blimp tires and can do it for miles with wieght in the back. Not as easy with forward CG. Might not be possible with the really big tires.

Fun stuff to do while learning your airplane.

Don
 
stol

outside of the levity between those of you who know each other and can appreciate each others flying skill. This section on STOL has been very informative to say the least. It proves that like other things worth doing the practice of practicing take off and landings in other than long paved strips only enhances the pleasure of flying. Besides the beer goes down better with a good story.
 
Don, I used to spend a lot of time doing the tailwheel only trick. Tain't easy since you don't have much aileron effectiveness at that speed, and the rudder command authority is somewhat limited by the connection between the tailwheel and the rudder and the requirement to keep the tail on the ground. Once a gust starts you falling off to one side, it is really difficult to keep that main from touching. A very good practice technique that I never mastered as well as I would have wished. I certainly couldn't maintain it for miles, particularly on a gusty day.
 
Thought I'd better issue a note of caution to the Husky drivers lurking out there. Be carefull doing the one-wheel maneuver I described for the SC pilots in the Husky. It will do it, but you have a tendancy to overcontrol with the spades since they take control at low speed. As for the "driving" maneuver, it does that with the best of any of the ag-planes, with or without flaps. MM
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
S.T.O.L Operations
Replies
3
Views
5K
PA12driver
PA12driver
R
Shooting Circuits
Replies
18
Views
7K
heege-brigmann
H
J
How do you trim for short field?
2 3
Replies
86
Views
33K
aktango58
aktango58
E
Short Takeoff Technique 95HP Super Cub No Flaps ( Light / Heavy )
Replies
17
Views
4K
stewartb
S
F
Understanding your flaps
Replies
13
Views
7K
N636P
N636P
Back
Top