PA-18A “Cargo Deck”
- Thread starter EdH
- Start date
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
I thought that was the normal A model floor with the battery cut out in the corner.
That cargo floor is required (one half of it anyway as the STC instructions were to cut the cargo floor in half and just use the aft portion) for the Roger Borer third seat STC for the PA18A. That STC included seat belt attachments and the passenger sat on the cargo floor next to the battery or may have required relocating the battery further aft. I would have to go dig for the STC instructions to be sure (those were the good old days of the FAA). It used to (and still may) be the only approved third seat STC for the PA18A. I heard Cub Crafters may have developed a third seat for a PA18A later but never validated that. I looked for one or even a Piper drawing of one years ago without any luck. It was designed to be used when the passenger seat was removed, and you were hauling cargo. I think the idea was to ensure nothing rubbed against the rudder cables as well as distribute the load.
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EdH
Registered User
Alaska
Good info, thanks. I wonder if that was the factory regular floor and not the “Cargo Deck.” That one does not go forward enough and looks like it’ll leave a gap under the removable seat. The cargo deck is called out in the AR7 TCDS for restricted cargo hauling operations, so I’m looking into options for a legal 2070 pound gross.
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
From AR7:
I- Model PA-18A, 1 PCLM (Restricted Category Only), Approved February 5, 1952; Model PA-18A "135", 1 PCLM (Restricted Category Only), Approved June 17, 1952.
II - Model PA-18A "150", 1 PCLM (Restricted Category Only), Approved October 7, 1954.
Maximum Weight 2070 lb.
(c) The Model PA-18A "150" (Restricted Category) is the same as the Standard Category PA-18A "150"except for minor design changes and can be converted to the Standard Category using themanufacturer's conversion instructions dated August 6, 1957. When operating in Standard Category,FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet No. 1A2 will apply.
From 1A2:
IV. - Model PA-18S "150" and PA-18AS "150", 2 PCSM (Normal Category only), Approved October 1, 1954.
Maximum Weight 1760 lb.
This all appears very obvious to me. Do you think Wip would have only gone to 2000# on their STC if they could have made it 2070#?
Which Restricted Category are you planning to operate under? There are several options.
S2D
MEMBER
Montana
Two complete different purposes. Wipair was wanting to up the gross weight in Standard category, while hauling passengers etc.
EdH is strictly wanting to haul the most cargo he can get into the plane in restricted as the "litter" was intended. That is what that litter was designed for.
Ed
A local pilot used to own an airplane with that Litter in it.
The N number was 2359P.
You might get a copy of the records from the FAA and see what they did.
He thinks his brother in law had Dan's aircraft take it and the single stick system out and put a dual control system in it before it came down to the states.
So you might check with Dan's aircraft and see if they have it laying around there some where.
That was about 15 yrs ago. I believe the a/c is back in Alaska now.
I wold love to see you accomplish this for posterity's sake
S2D
MEMBER
Montana
I'd start with 8110.56b
c.Special Purpose Operations.The special purpose operation being approved for an
aircraft must have been approved under 14 CFR 21.25(b). See chapter 5 of this order for a list of
approved special purpose operations that can be performed in restricted category. If an approved
special purpose operation does not exist for the proposed mission, the applicant may petition the
FAA to consider approving a new special purpose operation for restricted category (see chapter 5,
paragraph 3).
and
( 8. Carriage of Cargo (Incidental)
Not sure what incidental means , but would refer to Para c if in doubt
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Could you point me to the documentation of other options? Piper report number maybe? I have report 939 dated August 6, 1957, and nowhere in that document is any mention of a Cargo configuration. Those are the instructions for the crop dusting configuration.
I also have Report 762 dated January 17, 1952, revised February 3, 1953 for the PA18A-135, also operating at 2070 Lbs. but that is also specific to crop dusting configuration.
Thanks
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/21.25
(b) For the purposes of this section, “special purpose operations” includes -
(1) Agricultural (spraying, dusting, and seeding, and livestock and predatory animal control);
(2) Forest and wildlife conservation;
(3) Aerial surveying (photography, mapping, and oil and mineral exploration);
(4) Patrolling (pipelines, power lines, and canals);
(5) Weather control (cloud seeding);
(6) Aerial advertising (skywriting, banner towing, airborne signs and public address systems); and
(7) Any other operation specified by the FAA.
I now see in AR7 the Cargo Deck Installation. It calls out the Piper Part # 13714 drawing number. That's the drawing number I looked for, without any success, years ago. Any ideas where one would find that? I suspect the specifics of the install on drawing 13714 would have to be complied with to be legal.
EdH
Registered User
Alaska
Thanks all. As S2D says, I am looking into the possibilities of restricted category with a cargo floor and 2070 gross. As this configuration is in AR7 as an approved option, along with six different sprayers, I believe there should be a way to operate as a cargo hauler.
The common response to A model restricted ops is you must be in the Ag configuration, however, AR7 and pipers own documentation give a cargo configuration as well.
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The common response to A model restricted ops is you must be in the Ag configuration, however, AR7 and pipers own documentation give a cargo configuration as well.
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Not the drawing, but perhaps will help:
https://www.univair.com/content/Report-939-Conversion-to-Std-PA18.pdf
https://www.univair.com/content/Report-939-Conversion-to-Std-PA18.pdf
That report is very specific to crop dusting configuration as I suspect drawing 13714 is very specific to cargo configuration. I must operate in Restricted category when flying an external load but I don't think I'm legal to 2070 as AR7 had no such configuration. Or am I wrong?
I now see the cargo instructions but still looking for drawing 13714.
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S2D
MEMBER
Montana
Thanks for posting that Pete. I hadn't looked at mine in so long I forgot it had the cargo config. On it.
S2D
MEMBER
Montana
I may be stepping on a land mine here but......................................
To fly with an internal load the way Ed wants, he would have to refer to Report 939 page 5, and Drawing 13714. And get a Restricted airworthiness permit issued for hauling cargo (internally) and would be legal to 2070 lbs.
You hauling cargo externally would have to get an "External" Restricted airworthiness Certificate and should be able to use 2070 gross weight if you have an AR7 Supercub and convince whoever issues the permit that it is appropriate,
The key for Ed would be finding Drawing 13714.
the Key for you would be to convince your DAR or whoever issues it, that 2070 is a valid Gross weight. The drawing might or might not help.
EdH
Registered User
Alaska
Yes thanks for posting that. That’s the documentation I was referring to that shows Piper intended the A to be used in a cargo configuration as well as Ag use.
My goal is to clarify the cargo use for A models, and maybe have a way for owners to operate theirs as such. At best it’ll allow a 2070 cargo hauling gross, and at worst, it’ll be a paperwork novelty with good loading information.
EdH
Registered User
Alaska
Read a few pages down on that doc and it discusses the cargo configuration.
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
That Piper report no. 939 should be the answer. Also keep in mind the FAA will issue dual airworthiness certificates. You can have both a Standard and a Restricted certificate. Then you will not be restricted to only hauling cargo. You chose which to operate under.
When you request the Restricted, I would ask for an exception to 1. Remove cargo floor panel. on page 7. That could be a "gotcha".
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Now this question: Would the cargo mod be approved without the additional doubler panels/deck in #1, and only the floor shown in #5? My A-model had the floor in #5 full length from rear baggage to front floor panel near the rear stick. Assumed it was resting on tubing below. The aileron and rudder cable covers were present as was Atlee's stick cover over the rear stick stub. Stock GW only.
Gary
Gary
EdH
Registered User
Alaska
That’s what I’m hoping to do. Have both A/w certs and have a straightforward way to swap back and forth.
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S2D
MEMBER
Montana
EdH
Registered User
Alaska
Funny thing Gary, this is your old A model. And yes what you described is what was in it up until the recent fuselage rebuild and carbon aluminum floors.
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BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Well good to hear EdH that it's still trucking along. I never should have sold it but I had to have that PA-12-180....rear view mirrors are quite clear. GL with your project! Say hello to Swede when you fly her...he owned it in Montana and the coyotes still speak of him on quiet nights.
Gary
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
The instructions say to remove the cargo floor panel for reconversion. So if you are then flying it under the Standard certificate, technically you are not in compliance with report 939. Granted you are unlikely to come across an FAA type who would know the difference. Just to be safe, have the exception in writing.
cubpilot2
SPONSOR
Anchorage Alaska
If I had cargo to haul ( I do this a lot) I would strongly recommend installing the Willow Mountain Air STC to lower all the extended baggage decking down to the longerons and run the elevator cables below the aft floor.
This also gets you the third seat authorization and a 170 lb baggage area. All operations are then performed in the standard category and your insurance will be valid.
I have not found insurance for restricted category use. If I use my external load permit in restricted category I am on my own.
Many people have tried to figure out how to take advantage of the high gross weight of the 18A as a sprayer, but every Ag plane restricted category airworthiness certificates that I have dealt with specifically stated for “Agricultural Aerial Applications only). (Or words to that effect) None ever mentioned anything about cargo.
I think trying to make it fit is a big can of worms and will eventually haunt you.
Try finding a piper cargo deck….. none exist. Ok let’s build our own….to what specification. Opps. Battery got moved…need to fill in hole…not to spec. Need a spray plane torque tube….hard to find. Owner produced part that doesn’t match original…..who’s going to approve it, your IA? = Ain’t worth the pain.
This also gets you the third seat authorization and a 170 lb baggage area. All operations are then performed in the standard category and your insurance will be valid.
I have not found insurance for restricted category use. If I use my external load permit in restricted category I am on my own.
Many people have tried to figure out how to take advantage of the high gross weight of the 18A as a sprayer, but every Ag plane restricted category airworthiness certificates that I have dealt with specifically stated for “Agricultural Aerial Applications only). (Or words to that effect) None ever mentioned anything about cargo.
I think trying to make it fit is a big can of worms and will eventually haunt you.
Try finding a piper cargo deck….. none exist. Ok let’s build our own….to what specification. Opps. Battery got moved…need to fill in hole…not to spec. Need a spray plane torque tube….hard to find. Owner produced part that doesn’t match original…..who’s going to approve it, your IA? = Ain’t worth the pain.
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
^^^^Yup
Gary
Gary
S2D
MEMBER
Montana
You are probably right Ed except for that part.
Looking at the parts book at that cargo deck, they list two different floor panels, one for A/C with electrics and one for A/c without electrics.
perhaps one doesn't have a hole for the battery box.
Just a hunch, would probably need the drawing to verify.
daedgerton
PATRON
Arlington, VA
I love the A model worm hole... Can't wait to rebuild mine and get sucked into another galaxy!
