Lowrider LSA

[Lowrider]

Long long ago a friend of mine was trimming the edge of a counter top with a router. He set the router down on a saw horse and bumped the leg of the saw horse and the router was falling off...he grabbed the bottom of the router while the bit was barely turning but it sunk into his hand...I'll spare everyone the rest of the details but he had to undergo several reconstructive surgeries and he still doesn't have full use of the hand. Tools are dangerous...be careful out there!!!

Back to airplanes...maybe some of the folks building Bearhawk Patrols can tell me if there is a fairing that goes out from the fuselage and covers the gap between the inside edge of the flap and the fuselage? I will have about a 1" gap, maybe a little more between the inside edge of the flap and the fuselage...should it be faired on the top?

Happy and healthy New Year to everyone!!

 

[Lowrider]

No Patrol builders out there? I have drawings for the LSA but I put the missing flaps on my wings...'cause...well...they need them IMHO. Most of the info I needed is on line somewhere but I can't find any indication if a fairing is appropriate between the fuselage and the inboard edge of the flaps. Maybe there is someone out there with a super cub like plane that can tell me if there is an advantage to reducing the drag at that point or if it just doesn't make a big difference.

 

[JimParker256]

Some Patrol builders have fabricated a fairing that goes along the wing/fuselage junction, and extends back to cover the top/inside edge of the flap. The flap just snugs up against it when fully retracted. I haven't seen anything on the lower side - it's basically not needed from what I can tell.

 

[Lowrider]

Thanks Jim!!

That's exactly what I am considering. The reason I'm thinking about it now is I will need to weld in some tabs on the fuselage longeron to screw the fairing into since the fabric cover would not be adequate to hold the fairing by it's self. I'm thinking of making a fairing out of 0.025 alum with a couple ridges rolled into it to add some stiffness and maybe some rubber under the fairing so where the fabric on the top of the flap rubs on it, it won't be damaged.

Sounds like it's an optional thing but it seems like a good idea. Any other thoughts?

Thanks again Jim!

 

[Lowrider]

I'm a big fan of MSD ignitions, totally reliable for me so far and they give good spark control and a massive spark. I'm thinking of using one for my 0-320 with crank pickup, maybe the one below:
[h=2]MSD Ignition 6425 Details[/h]6-Series Digital Ignition Controls
MSD's Digital 6AL Ignition has the same footprint as the original 6AL yet incorporates a sleeker, lower profile and relocated rev limiter. The limiter is on top of the housing for easy access to the two rotary dials that control the rev limit in 100 RPM increments. To simplify installation and keep things tidy, all wiring is routed out one end of the ignition box through a sealed connector. Inside the Digital 6AL Ignition, a microprocessor manages and monitors every firing while high-efficiency circuits make more power using less current.
Features Compatible on 4, 6, or 8-cylinder engines with 12-volt negative ground electrical systems
Same bolt pattern as traditional 6AL but with low-profile housing
Delivers 530 volts to the coil with up to 135mJ of spark energy per firing
Efficient internals draw less current to produce more power
Set rev limit in 100 RPM increments with two rotary dials
All wires exit on same side via sealed/locked connector
Accepts trigger inputs from breaker points, amplifiers, and magnetic pickups
Includes wiring harness, necessary installation components, and vibration mounts
Built-in LED for system checks
CARB E.O Number D-40-43
Specifications
Spark Energy: 135 to 145 mJ
Primary Voltage: 520 to 540
Secondary Voltage: 45,000
Spark Series Duration: 20° Crankshaft Rotation
RPM Range: 15,000 with 14.4 volts
Required Voltage: 12 to 15 (7-volt start)
Current Draw: 0.7 amp per 1,000 RPM
Size: 8" L x 4" W x 1.825" H
Weight: 1.7 pounds

It looks like I can put together a fully redundant system for under $800. These can be synced or sequential for additional spark to the second set of plugs, i. e. fire the top plug then micro seconds later fire the bottom plug giving additional fire to ensure complete combustion and hopefully a smidge more power. My only concern with the system is 2 parallel systems will pull 3.4 amps which may tax my ignition battery or require a larger one than I had originally intended since I won't have an alternator.

Has anyone else used MSD or similar ignitions with an 0-320/0-360?

 

[skywagon8a]

Low, You sure come up with some different ideas. How will the distributor mount to your engine?

Since you are not installing an alternator, how are you generating electricity? I found that it is possible to just use a large battery and charge it overnight. However I have also found that it is wise to have some form of electricity generation on board.

 

[Lowrider]

Hey Sky!

I hear things have warmed up back there...at least for awhile.

Always thinking...I know that's dangerous.

No distributor, it is triggered by a crank trigger using a magnetic pickup with the magnets mounted on the starter ring. It's not clear to me yet whether you can use one pickup to feed both or do you need a pickup for each. The MSD units provides 20 degrees of spark at 6000 rpm so at cruise speed of 2350 to 2500 rpm that would seem to be plenty of fire on each plug which of course would be a quality auto plug.

I'm looking for a more efficient and economical way to provide ignition...that's all. I can't be the first person with this thought. MSD also makes a fully programmable unit that hooks to a PC but I don't think that's necessary for a simple Lycoming.

I'm following your lead with a "no alternator" system and I suppose by the time I'm ready to buy, battery technology will have improved to the point where my concern about battery weight may not be as big an issue as I think...there I go thinking again.

 

[skywagon8a]

Yes it did get up into the 50s but dropped today. 25 right now headed down. We had rain yesterday which washed all of the snow away and the ice on the lake looks unsafe.
Put the cars out in the driveway for a Maine car wash. :lol:

I did run with no alternator for several years but after running the battery down scared myself. Landed with a dead battery, the engine quit and I had to paddle to the shore.
So now I have a wind driven Kubota Dynamo which puts out up to 15.5 amps. Total installed weight 5 pounds.

 

[Lowrider]

WOW!! good thing you were over the lake!! We have lots of water here but I'm not going to floats right away so a dead battery is not an option for me.

I believe we talked about a Kubota alternator once before and I looked at my BX1500 which I use as a mower and it's alternator is a baby so it would work just fine. Don't recall how you mounted it though. It seems there was ducted air under the belly...am I close?

 

[skywagon8a]

The engine didn't stop until after I landed and the rpm dropped below about 900.

Look at this thread starting at post #17. http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?48723-Solar-Chargers
Pictures of mine are at post #154.

 

[marcusofcotton]

Hey Sky!

I hear things have warmed up back there...at least for awhile.

Always thinking...I know that's dangerous.

No distributor, it is triggered by a crank trigger using a magnetic pickup with the magnets mounted on the starter ring. It's not clear to me yet whether you can use one pickup to feed both or do you need a pickup for each. The MSD units provides 20 degrees of spark at 6000 rpm so at cruise speed of 2350 to 2500 rpm that would seem to be plenty of fire on each plug which of course would be a quality auto plug.

I'm looking for a more efficient and economical way to provide ignition...that's all. I can't be the first person with this thought. MSD also makes a fully programmable unit that hooks to a PC but I don't think that's necessary for a simple Lycoming.

I'm following your lead with a "no alternator" system and I suppose by the time I'm ready to buy, battery technology will have improved to the point where my concern about battery weight may not be as big an issue as I think...there I go thinking again.

So what's happening as far as timing advance curves with the MSD?

 

[Lowrider]

You folks on that thread did a fantastic job of problem solving! I'm very impressed with the plywood fan blade!!

Mounting the fan driven alternator under the nose and taking advantage of prop generated air flow certainly makes the most sense. The output of the little Kubota alternator is adequate for most any small aircraft that would be running without an engine mounted power source.

OK, if I may steal the hard work put into this fan driven alternator, my concern about battery drain goes away. Running in "dirty air" should also reduce any drag produced by the unit.


Maybe I missed it but is there a voltage regulator called out somewhere? It could be put inside next to the battery to make sure there is only clean power charging the battery.


NIce work guys!!

 

[Lowrider]

Marcus,

On the programmable units you can set the advance curve. On other models I'm not sure yet but I would guess it is set up for a "car engine". MSD seems to use 6K rpm as a base line which probably is driven by engine speed on some pre-established advance curve. My plan is to contact MSD tech guys and see how it works and how (if) it can be tailored to an engine with a 1K to 2.8K rpm range.

I'll let you know what I learn. If anyone knows, please chime in.

 

[skywagon8a]

Maybe I missed it but is there a voltage regulator called out somewhere? It could be put inside next to the battery to make sure there is only clean power charging the battery.

Look at post #37 @ http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?48723-Solar-Chargers That's the base of the regulator. The top has cooling fins.
The dynamo output is ac which feeds directly to the Kubota regulator which converts the electricity to dc airplane power. This output is tied to the main bus through a c/b. There is a "field" switch and 5 amp breaker to turn the dynamo on and off. All in the wiring diagram.

 

[Lowrider]

You're right Sky...I missed it...thanks.

I wonder if we could use one of these things...one wire with internal regulator but not water proof so it would require protection:

remove the pulley and replace with a fan.

• 
• 
• 
• 

[h=1]Chevy Mini Alternator Denso Street Rod Race 1-Wire 12180[/h]
[h=4]Product Description[/h]

BRAND NEW AFTERMARKET CHEVY
1-WIRE MINI ALTERNATOR
12 Volt - 35 Amp

Perfect for High Performance where a light-weight alternator is needed.
The output is 35 amps for maximum power when you need it!

Internally regulated with 1-Wire Hookup.
You will only need to connect your main battery charging
wire to the alternator output terminal post.
Very easy to install and wire for plug and play operation.
Small and light-weight, this mini alternator can be mounted on almost
all Chevys with only minor bracket modifications.Dimensions:
Diameter - 4 inches
Length - 4.5 inches
Mounting holes center to center - 5-3/8 inches
Weight = 5.5 pounds​

 

[skywagon8a]

The Kubota dynamo complete with prop, mounts and regulator total weight 5.5 lbs. You can use any of these as long as you have a method of turning it. One reason that I like the Kubota is that it has a cup to deflect water away from the internals which is particularly important on a seaplane.

 

[Lowrider]

#2 son is getting into 3D printing and thinks he can design a 2 piece aerodynamic cover to protect the alternator and reduce the drag. We'll see how well he can design and print before I get too excited about it. I plan on floats at some point too.

 

[skywagon8a]

Also the dynamo has no wearable parts other than the ball bearings.

 

[Lowrider]

Plan would be to monitor health of the alternator with the Davtron and replace as needed. It's only $65 so it's disposable when it wears out in my mind.

 

[RVBottomly]

On the alternator situation, one thing that puzzles me is why experimental aircraft haven't adopted something like what is found on outboard motors?

I have a Tohatsu 20hp outboard that has a fixed stator coil of something like 10 or 12 poles. Magnets on the drive shaft pass by, producing around 15 Amps using a tiny voltage regulator.

15 amps may not be much, but it does a fair job topping off the trolling batteries and runs a fish finder. It seems like it would be enough to run basic electronics.

So, dreaming a bit: imagine a bunch of magnets mounted around the starter ring with a light weight stator array fixed to the engine. No bearings needed. I would think someone has tried it already.

 

[Lowrider]

Could be done RV but then it would be an engine powered system and you would need to buy all the required stuff that an air powered unit doesn't require. Besides...that would do away with all the fun of making this system work.

I'm a pretty strong advocate of using 21st century technology in small airplanes...it just isn't cost effective to develop it for wide spread use so we use mid 20th century technology instead...although there are lots of new ideas being brought into use every day...I love GPS...but we still need to teach the kids how to read a map!!

 

[RVBottomly]

I love GPS...but we still need to teach the kids how to read a map!!

Ain't that the truth. For some reason the databases used by delivery drivers has our house location 2 miles away under a water tower. It's taken UPS and FedEx 4 years to figure out that addresses around here follow a logical grid.

 

[Lowrider]

Sky,

I found a 3 blade 8" diameter trolling motor prop made of nylon. It seems to be the right size and could work. I bought the above alternator and I think I'll get one of the trolling motor props and follow the test procedures used previously. I guess I need to make a decision on what battery I'm going to use and find out the max charge rate so I don't overcharge. Also the voltage that the alternator turns out at particular speeds.

 

[skywagon8a]

Low,
Does it matter which direction that alternator rotates? If so, make sure that the prop blades turn in the same direction. The dynamo works equally as well in either direction since it's output is ac. So the prop can be either a left or right turner. The dynamo came with an output chart showing rpm vs amp output.

 

[Lowrider]

It needs to turn clockwise according to the specs. Looking at the prop it seems that it will turn that way mounted with the tapered end forward which is actually backwards from the way it turns on the trolling motor. I can mount it either way by slicing off the tapered part of the prop but it would look nice with the pointy end forward.

We'll see how this works out and if not so good I'll use the dynamo you used. Just seems to be better to take 12 Volt DC from the alternator rather than an AC current that needs to be converted.

It is also dependent upon rpm/amp output that will match the battery charge requirements. The AGM batteries in my 4 wheelers only want a max 5 amp charge rate but I want to get as light a battery as possible that will meet the needs of the plane. If this works as expected I don't need to be as concerned about current draw if I put some more electrical stuff in the plane. Also looks like I still want dual light weight batteries, one for ignition and one for lights/nav gear/radios and the like, both charged by the same alternator.

This is a great idea you guys had!!!

 

[Farmboy]

Sky,

I found a 3 blade 8" diameter trolling motor prop made of nylon. It seems to be the right size and could work. I bought the above alternator and I think I'll get one of the trolling motor props and follow the test procedures used previously. I guess I need to make a decision on what battery I'm going to use and find out the max charge rate so I don't overcharge. Also the voltage that the alternator turns out at particular speeds.

Low.... if you go back and read probably too many pages of a thread titled "solar chargers" or some unrelated name like that, you'll find that based on Skywagon Pete's idea, I got a dynamo and tested a bunch of different props. Like you, I had the idea that a trolling motor prop would be great. Well, I was wrong. I had to heat them up and twist them crazy to get them to spin up in the airflow. Now, it could be that since your unit is free-wheeling and does not have the magnets that the airflow has to overcome to "start" the prop spinning, you may have more luck. But the fast answer is I switched over to a multi-bladed bow thruster prop, and that works beautifully. Skywagon Pete of course was able to hand carve his own version of it.

Pb

 

[Farmboy]

Speaking of that, I just listed the larger SET00090 Vetus prop (255mm) on eBay, since the little model is working for me. But here's a another photo.

 

[Lowrider]

PB,

Thanks for the comments!

That's a big fan. I have no idea yet if the little 8" three blade prop will spin the alternator but I'll find out...just ordered it. If it doesn't work I'll replace the 2 blade on my 50 lb trolling motor which has a lot of rock nicks and looks like it doesn't even have a season left. I looked at the 2 two blade on the trolling motor and it seems like it will work so I hit it with about 50 psi air from the compressor at about 2' and it turned the motor slowly on the trolling motor. Not a good test but I figured a 3 blade would spin better...we'll see.

I have no skills to carve a wooden prop like Sky's so I'm dependent on someone's else's product. It's good to know that the smaller thruster blade works on yours so I can always fall back on that if the one I order isn't sufficient.

 

[Farmboy]

I lagged mine to a 2x4 and held it out the window. When I discovered it wouldn’t spin up on its own I lagged it to the headache rack behind the cab and did some midnight runs at 70/80/90/100 with Various designs.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

 

[Farmboy]

Ps - amp meter in the cab with the generator hooked to a battery powering a big light gave me a good indication of amp output at different speeds.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org