This Could Be Important To All Of Us

[Dough Head]

EASTERN LAWMAKERS MOVE TO DENY OHV ACCESS TO 24 MILLION ACRES IN WESTERN STATES
Members of the House Natural Resources Committee met to consider legislation that would set aside an unprecedented 24 million acres of public lands in the Northern Rockies. This land would be designated as “wilderness” and by definition, motorized recreation would be strictly prohibited in these areas.

This proposal has been reintroduced numerous times over the last 12 years. While the bill has bipartisan support, the sponsors of the measure and a vast majority of the co-sponsors are from eastern states. The breadth and magnitude of lands affected by this bill has turned this into an east-west debate. During the hearing, Congressional members representing the affected states expressed their vehement opposition to the bill. In addition, representatives from the U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management testified on the administration’s opposition to the measure. While it is safe to assume that the bill, as written, will not become law under the current administration, this could change in the future depending on which party controls Congress and the White House.

Wilderness legislation is consequential to SEMA members since it potentially denies access to off-roaders and the equipment that they purchase. SEMA continues to support land-use decisions that allow local stakeholders to participate in the decision-making process. Within that context, SEMA supports compromise approaches on wilderness areas that balance the need to preserve access to appropriate motorized recreation while protecting some of our nation’s natural wonders. Details: Jason Tolleson at jasont@sema.org or Petra Smeltzer at petras@sema.org.

 

[Christina Young]

Yep this sure will shut down a lot of airstrips and close backcountry access to most of the American people for good....

 

[NimpoCub]

We (BC Floatplane Ass'n) have had a struggle with the BC Parks folks for years over access to many lakes in BC Parks (sensitivity issues)

An agreement was struck two years ago where floatplanes now have free access to most lakes, and preauthorization (permission by registration) to the most sensitive ones. In return, the BC Parks gets year end reports on what we see etc, when flying around the parks. It seems to be working, both "sides" are happy so far.

It may not hurt that we also volunteer to help the Parks folks with various small projects. Last month I helped tear down a concealed moose camp & haul out some debris. It was a somewhat enjoyable day, a good excuse for a flight, and I wore my BCFP shirt!!

I'm thinking that if someone (like AOPA) could make a somewhat similar deal with your Bureau of Land Mgmt or whomever...

 

[superchamp]

No ifs about what will happen in a new "Hillary" administration. No planes, OHV's, hunters, loggers, etc. Put me in the political rant-n-rave section I guess. But I'm worried about where my kids will enjoy the outdoors when its all an inaccessible unallowable park. A lot of east coast city dwellers support this.

 

[Torch]

Us Alaskans have known for years what it is like to have huge areas put off limits to our activities. HUGE areas of Alaska are off limits to Alaskans who have traditionally hunted there. There is a saying up here, the parks are for the PARK RANGERS. Now GTFO.

 

[behindpropellers]

Makes you wonder if the original people that set up these lands are rolling in thier grave after they set aside the land for the recreational use.

It always makes me wonder what the park district here is up to. Most activities are no longer family oriented. Families that play together stay together.


Tim

 

[N370GL]

Wilderness is the basic ingredient of American civilization. From the raw materials of the physical wilderness we Americans built a civilization.

Wilderness designation doesn't take take anything away, it saves the small amounts that are left.

Would you rather fly your supercub into Shafer's Meadow, catch some trout for lunch & be the only soul within 20 miles?

or

Would you like to fly your cirrus into a 8000 foot runway in Jackson Hole and have a no-water-soy latte and salad for lunch with a bunch of yuppies from NJ.

Wake-up and save what is left of the culture and landscape of the American West.

Anyone who is against Wilderness is (1) stupid or (2) condo building scum.

 

[N370GL]

Wilderness is the basic ingredient of American civilization. From the raw materials of the physical wilderness we Americans built a civilization.

Wilderness designation doesn't take take anything away, it saves the small amounts that are left.

Would you rather fly your supercub into Shafer's Meadow, catch some trout for lunch & be the only soul within 20 miles?

or

Would you like to fly your cirrus into a 8000 foot runway in Jackson Hole and have a no-water-soy latte and salad for lunch with a bunch of yuppies from NJ.

Wake-up and save what is left of the culture and landscape of the American West.

Anyone who is against Wilderness is (1) stupid or (2) condo building scum.

 

[benflyn]

Charles Goodnight "Quote"

The man made spoke this more than 100 years ago!!

"The mountains and plains will produce the finest race of men and women that the world has ever known, but they will have to meet with brains what the east presents by numbers"

 

[superchamp]

Just like I said, a lot of east coast city dwellers will support this. Not that they will ever go there anyway. They just don't want anyone else there either stepping on mother's forest floor.

 

[T.J.]

delete

 

[AkPA/18]

T. J.---I might be wrong on this one but---- I don't think you are going to have your shot at sending this to R and R unless you really type fast

Mark

 

[behindpropellers]

T. J.---I might be wrong on this one but---- I don't think you are going to have your shot at sending this to R and R unless you really type fast

Mark

Mark-
Are you trying to provoke TJ now? :lol:

 

[cabinflyer]

I Googled the web sites listed in the first posts. To me it looks like SEMA is an association of vendors that primarily sells parts that go on hot rods!? The only reference on there site I found was to the commitee on natural rescources. From there the only thing I could find that was close was HR 1101, The Virginia Ridge Valley Act of 2007. In this bill I could find no reference to land outside of Virginia.

So Dough Head maybe you could enlighten us more

Here is the summarry of the text

The following summary is provided by the Congressional Research Service, which is a nonpartisan government entity that serves Congress and is run by the Library of Congress. The summary is taken from the official website THOMAS.

2/13/2007--Introduced.
Virginia Ridge and Valley Act of 2007 - Designates certain lands in the Jefferson National Forest, Virginia (Brush Mountain and Brush Mountain East, Seng Mountain and Raccoon Branch, Stone Mountain, Hunting Camp Creek and Garden Mountain, Mountain Lake Additions, Lewis Fork Addition and Little Wilson Creek Additions, Shawvers Run Additions, Peters Mountain Addition, and Kimberling Creek Additions) as wilderness.
Designates certain lands in the Jefferson National Forest as: (1) the "Lynn Camp Creek Wilderness Study Area ;" and (2) the "Kimberling Creek Potential Wilderness Area" for eventual incorporation in the Kimberling Creek Wilderness. Sets forth requirements regarding ecological restoration.
Designates Seng Mountain and Raccoon Branch, and Bear Creek, as National Scenic Areas (Scenic Areas). Establishes such Areas for purposes of: (1) ensuring the protection and preservation of scenic quality, water quality, natural characteristics, and water resources; (2) protecting wildlife and fish habitat; (3) protecting areas that may develop characteristics of old-growth forests; and (4) providing a variety of recreation opportunities.
Directs the Secretary of Agriculture to: (1) develop a management plan for such Scenic Areas; and (2) establish a trail plan for National Forest System (NFS) lands in order to develop hiking and equestrian trails on the lands in Jefferson National Forest designated as wilderness by this Act and non-motorized recreation trails within the Seng Mountain and Bear Creek Scenic Areas. Sets forth provisions regarding roads, vegetation management, motorized travel, fire, insects and disease, water, and mining and geothermal leasing.

 

[Christina Young]

Wilderness designation doesn't take take anything away, it saves the small amounts that are left. ...

Anyone who is against Wilderness is (1) stupid or (2) condo building scum.

Absolute nonsense. It certainly does take stuff away from the American people! It takes access away -- the ability to get to remote places -- by the vast majority of Americans by shutting down trails that have been there for over 100 years, as well as backcountry airstrips!. The official "Wilderness Designation" is NOT the same as "preserving wilderness"!

This is NOT about stopping urban sprawl and the building of condos, which is NOT affected because it happens on private land anyway.

Look at what's happening in the Missouri Breaks region. Place gets designated as "Wilderness", then the government starts shutting down backcountry airstrips because they are in "Designated Wilderness".

Because of this I am certainly against any "Designated Wilderness", so LP I guess you think I am stupid.

T.J. you are right, it is eastern liberals who never access or enjoy these backcountry places out west and spend most of their free time in the Short Hills mall that want this to go through. These places aren't in their backyard and they never go there, so they aren't affected.

 

[dpearce]

Wilderness is the basic ingredient of American civilization. From the raw materials of the physical wilderness we Americans built a civilization.

The mere presence of a wilderness is not the basic ingredient. The ability to use that wilderness and the resources it contains is the basic ingredient. To merely have such an item is no different than having some bauble purchased at a flee market that sits on a shelf gathering dust. You can not get raw materials from a wilderness without access and the ability to remove those raw materials. Both of which are restricted or eliminated with a "wilderness" designation.

Wilderness designation doesn't take take anything away, it saves the small amounts that are left.

Read the 1964 Wilderness Act if you would before making such a statement. The act by both it's direct and vague statements gave government the ability to remove access and use of the designated wilderness.

Would you rather fly your supercub into Shafer's Meadow, catch some trout for lunch & be the only soul within 20 miles?

or

Would you like to fly your cirrus into a 8000 foot runway in Jackson Hole and have a no-water-soy latte and salad for lunch with a bunch of yuppies from NJ.

How would you like the Secretary of Agriculture to decide one day that you shouldn't be able to land at Shafers Meadow because he/she doesn't believe that is a good use for a meadow in the "Wilderness" as has happened in Idaho, Utah and Missouri (as mentioned). By having the "Wilderness" designation that power has been granted. For myself, I have seen too much of the misguided application of power from those in politics to want them telling me where I can walk, ride or fly.

Wake-up and save what is left of the culture and landscape of the American West.

Anyone who is against Wilderness is (1) stupid or (2) condo building scum.

I would gently suggest that you wake up and notice your freedoms are being eroded in leaps and bounds across this great country. In the name of "saving the wilderness" you have given someone else the authority to control when you can and can't access a fishing hole that may have been in the family for years. Those who are against wilderness are typically neither of your definitions. What they are is folks who want to use a resource without being dictated to by some corrupt self-serving political hack.

As a point of reference for you. In 1980 roughly 57,000,000 acres was designated wilderness in Alaska. That is roughly an area 10 times the size of your entire state. All of it controlled by some individuals 4 time zones and a world away. I think enough has been taken away.

 

[N370GL]

a couple of points...

I'm from Montana not NJ.

I've have read the 1964 Wilderness Act. (I had to when I got my minor in Wilderness studies from the Univ of Montana).

I've spent time in most all the Wilderness areas in Montana hunting, fishing, camping, flying, camping basicly doing anything I want to do.

People are confusing presevation (limiting development) with limting access. Wilderness doesn't stop access it insures that the existing state of access is guaranteed.

The Missouri Breaks (another place that I've spent a lot time) are not eligible for Wilderness designation. That is another issue that BJ Clinton oversteped his presidential powers by creating "national monuments".

I've seen the American West change and not for the better and find it amusing that the people on this web-site challenge my statements based on their perception that I’m from NJ when in fact my family has been in MT since the late 1800's.

Get a grip and look around because what you see and the things you love to do won’t be there for your kids.

 

[superchamp]

Being from northern MN, only a few miles from the BWCAW and Voyageurs NP, I have experienced first hand what "preserving" means to the enviro nazis. It is a first step in a series of many that take place over years, often decades, to make every bit of "wilderness" they can completely off limits to everyone. First, they "limit" certain areas, "limit" certain trails, then completely close trails, then they do a million dollar study that says only a few people use the area anyway (because reasonable access is now barred), and make the case that the entire area should be out of bounds for anyone since now it would only affect a few. We should "save it" for our children they say. And their children will tell our children that "they" should save it for their children, and so on. Voyageurs NP was going to be a national park like no other we were told up here. Yes, they were going to take all private property, family cabins that had been there for generations, but, unlike all other national parks, this one would remain open to hunting and trapping, since it had such a rich tradition of these activities-thus the name "voyageur" from the traders and trappers that pioneered the area. Two years later, that promise was broken by east coast big city liberals who can't stand the thought of people carrying on such activities on "national" land. I have reason to doubt the good intent of any government official that says they are doing something good for me or my children.

 

[dpearce]

a couple of points...

I'm from Montana not NJ.

Your tagline says NJ after "Location", so it would seem appropriate that folks would assume you are from New Jersey or currently reside there.

People are confusing presevation (limiting development) with limting access. Wilderness doesn't stop access it insures that the existing state of access is guaranteed.

Here is the text of the Wilderness Act that says otherwise.
"Within wilderness areas designated by this Act the use of aircraft or motorboats, where these uses have already become established, may be permitted to continue subject to such restriction as the Secretary of Agriculture deems desirable. In addition, such measures may be taken as may be necessary in the control of fire, insects, and diseases, subject to such conditions as the Secretary deems desirable."

Notice the "May" in that first sentence? It allows the sitting Ag Sec (or designee) to set the conditions of access. Previously accessible areas have been restricted in recent times using this paragraph. That includes removing landing rights at airstrips and certain lakes. This is one reason for the Backcountry Landing Strip Access Act S. 681/H.R. 1363, that has been debated in those hallowed halls back east for the past umpteen years. Government officials with an inviromental wacho bent have been using the Wilderness Act to arbitrarily and with no notice close backcountry strips and removing lake landing rights that allow folks to access areas for camping, fishing etc. in a manner that has very little impact on the land compared to ATVs, horses etc.

I've seen the American West change and not for the better and find it amusing that the people on this web-site challenge my statements based on their perception that I’m from NJ when in fact my family has been in MT since the late 1800's.

I would agree with your first statement here but probably for different reasons. A majority of the efforts at "preservation" have been severely mis-guided due to politics.

Get a grip and look around because what you see and the things you love to do won’t be there for your kids.

Already see this happening. I don't believe putting control of the land in the hands of political hacks is the solution. Their track record isn't so great from my point of view in large part due to their minuscule local knowledge and questionable motives.

 

[iamcamper]

I'm all for preserving wilderness areas by limiting development of public land by regulation, but the problem is that the government has a nasty habit of taking mile when we give them only an inch. History has proven that time and time again. Folks say we need to save this land for our children. Ok, fine, but what good is it to save it if they will never be able to enjoy it first hand?

And just to let you all know, we have plenty of dirt worshiping tree huggers out in the West that if they got their way would totally close off state/fed forest land, kick the farmers off their land and have everybody living in condos and riding bicycles. Its called social engineering and has no place at all here in the USA.

 

[aktango58]

Please do not feel alone.

Again a group here that is funded by Greenpeace/Serria club etc. are trying to get one of the large river systems close by listed as wilderness; they also want the herring in that area listed as endangered, both to get a mine stopped. Not Pebble either.

Baranof wilderness area, which is a large part of the island, was touted as a good thing to prevent development, have for the kids, no restrictions on float planes so people could enjoy it bla bla bla.

Guess what? The local air services have restrictions into the lakes, the fishing guides have access limits to how many trips to each lake, (very limited); the big game guides get told on a whim, (no biological reasons behind the decision), "We are only allowing three goats to be hunted, and three bears, so since you are number four on the list, you do not get any."

My father was not healthy for a number of years before his death. Without the plane, a boat or a car he could not get there. I remember the last time we hunted farther than 300 yards from the plane while on foot.

So you don't think that making it impossible to use ohv's, make roads, or give some political appointee the ability to say shut it down will limit access???????


The solution is to go to the main population centers, carve out about 5,000 acres in the middle and restore it to wilderness; don't worry about people working there, living there, or their historic family ties, put it back to when the pilgrams came. That way thoes that so desire can actually get there to see the wild!

( and put the predators back also and protect them so the idiots can learn why having an extra 500 wolves around their yappy dogs is not a good thing)

T.J., please don't take offence of my blasting ahead of you

 

[superchamp]

This is getting good! Keep it coming. The common thread seems to be we can no longer afford to give an inch or we might loose our last mile. The enviro groups have become wise, they know they can't grab it all at once. So they slice off one special interest group at a time. This time in Montana it is the OHV users. They will be the first to go. Next year it will be the airplanes, and then the hunters. Up here we call it environmental nibblism, they nibble away at the corners of bread and before you know it the whole slice is gone.

 

[mit greb]

A wise man once said, Do it today, tomorrow they will make a law making it illegal!

 

[aktango58]

I put some more thought into this so will say more,

TJ, feel free to take exception.

n369lp,

I truly wonder about your calling me an idiot. Well, maybe I am; last I checked Alaska was part of the 'Free" USA, where we the people have the say, where our freedoms are constitutional, like owning firearms.

We live in a country where we are free to travel without govt. interfering; can not be held without due process...

So we have BLM land

The Forest Service has: National forest, Monument, wilderness, and a few other designations.

National forest: Multiple use, (do idiots like me understand multiple? I found it in a dictionary). That means we can hunt, fish, trap, log, ride our sleds, take pictures, camp, get permits to make camps for commercial use, make access trails/roads, and have a good time. Not all can be set aside for logging, nor not logging; but multiple use. And oh, there can be an old guy with his cabin on PRIVATE PROPERTY surrounded by the forest and drive through the forest without the bunny huggers putting nails all over the road and burning his place down.

Monument... well, this means that it can not be logged for the most part, is sort of a restricted forest, but not so anti motorized as wilderness. I have never gotten it strait; mostly I think it is closer to wilderness than anything.

Wilderness: No non-traditional motorized activities. Traditional is discussed in public meetings, then the supervisor decides what will be listed for that area, (usually none). Only dead and down wood may be cut. At any time that an enviroNazi USFS twit decides (no science needed)that there is area/critter in danger of being damaged by an activity, (traditional or not), the activity/trail/road can be closed immediately at the DISTRICT LEVEL, without public comment. Commercial access to permits is strictly limited, and difficult to wade through the paperwork if you are lucky enough to get one. Do not expect to drive a snowmachine, three or four wheeler or car through these, and scoop your dog poop also. Good luck getting a permit to build a permanent commercial lodge/camp in wilderness. Hope you don't have to maintain a trail to your private property, if they did not condemn it awayfrom you.

Please tell me how making National Forest into WILDERNESS is not going to change access?????? no future use of motorized vehicles, no new commercial buildings to base trips from, no roads to drive into a place that you have since cars were around...

About the changes in Montana: All of the development and destruction seems to be on private land, not the National Forest. So where is your family land? Did your family subdivide and sell to the high bidder for $? That seems to be the problem; Not the Govt. destroying the National Forest.

We have the largest National Forest in the US right here. My house is so close to National Forest that I can see it out every window, and I am on the water/power grid here.

A few years ago there was a "Tongass Roadless" bill that went east in an effort to stop roads from being built and maintained in the forest. The idea was to stop logging.

When the Tongass Use plan was put on the table in the 70's or 80's, the first pick of land was to the Enviromental Lobby. What do you want saved.

Of course once that was locked up until we all die, they started in on the other areas: "you can't log that! I can see it out my window!!!" "No, don't cut those trees, that is where we camp in the summer." The Roadless plan... it goes on and on to stop any use that is not "politically correct".

This is bleeden National Forest! They got lots of wilderness, parks and every other designation to protect most of the land around here, but that is not enough. Redesignate, reassign, re administrate to eliminate any motor, any controversial use until we all have to get a special permit to travel, no noise allowed, no touching the ground, and carry out not only our liquid and gel excrement, but the gas also.

By the way, we have one park up here that in itself doubled the national park acreage in the early 80's. Did you know we have I think 13 national parks in Alaska? did you know that you can drive to only three of them? Did you know that when ANILCA went in it displaced many individuals from their homes and businesses?

Do you care?

My guess is that the hours enjoyed in the parks created by ANILCA are less than would have been enjoyed by the people living there before it was a park.

And it goes on today, they keep closing trails down that were "traditional" because they think that the area is getting "damaged".

I may be an idiot 9lp, but I am one that lives in these areas, I visit them daily/yearly depending on where in Alaska they are. My family is from Montana a couple of generations ago, depression to be exact.

Alaska is not far behind Montana getting the lock it up mentality you have. But to continue to change land designations and use allocations because the citified ignorant close-minded cause marchers make themselves feel good is just plain wrong.

These decisions should be made by those living and using the area constantly, not a one trip a decade "isn't that bear cute" tourist.

Know why New Yorkers have a shitty attitude?

The light at the end of the tunnel is New Jersey! (my uncle told me that one)

 

[T.J.]

delete

 

[aktango58]

Good to hear from you TJ,

Can I buy you a beer?

You seem to have a year or so on me, how is it that it is not ok for you or I to fly a hopticlopter into these great big fancy wilderness areas, but it is ok for Johnny dumbver and Greenpeace to do it?????

Yea, Greenpeace came up a few years back and flew all over the Tongass to show why logging is bad bad bad.

We wont mention that they happen to 'forget' to file an oil spill response plan and insurance for their fossil fuel guzzling ship, or that they used that aircraft all over the wilderness, or that they left port after the troopers told requried them to stay put until their paperwork was up to law abiding standards...

Remember about eleven years ago one of the Clintonites wanted to ban Vibram soled boots in ANWAR refuge because it "damaged the tundra" and made trails? As if the cloven hoof of a caribou does not, and you think there is enough traffic there to damage anything???? (i is ranting)

And we can trust these types of people to make decisions for the good of the normal man?????????????

 

[aktango58]

forgot to mention again:

No helicopters in wilderness,

unless you are from the government, or a movie star, or from Greenpeace...

Does that not limit access??

 

[N370GL]

I will give up; you guys just don't get it.

The personal attacks are pretty funny because they are so far off base. I hunt, fish and fly airplanes just like you. I don't trust the governmental agencies just like you. I despise the years of the Clinton administration just like you.

 

[aktango58]

9lp,

from your second post:

"Wilderness doesn't stop access it insures that the existing state of access is guaranteed. "


from your first:

"Wilderness is the basic ingredient of American civilization. From the raw materials of the physical wilderness we Americans built a civilization. "

"Wilderness designation doesn't take take anything away, it saves the small amounts that are left. "

"Wake-up and save what is left of the culture and landscape of the American West."

Did you read what I said about the wilderness activities being limited?????

From the USFS site, about wilderness:

2326 - USE OF MOTORIZED EQUIPMENT OR MECHANICAL TRANSPORT IN WILDERNESS

2326.02 - Objectives

Accomplish management activities with nonmotorized equipment and non-mechanical transport of supplies and personnel.
Exclude the sight, sound, and other tangible evidence of motorized equipment or mechanical transport within wilderness except where they are needed and justified.

Remember, the justification comes from D.C. Do you see anything about 'Traditional'?

How can you say I don't get it? (your post just above). It is their freaking objective to 'Exclude the sight, sound and other tangible evidence of motorized equipment or mechanical transport...'

You seem like a bloke that cares, and believes he has roots in the west. Reading your location in NJ tells me that you are one of the unfortunate, by choice or need, to live away from the area you are so mighty anxious to protect.

Now about the civilization being built on wilderness: making more just exemplifies the 'I got mine, lock it up' attitude...

Culture? talk about culture but now say "make it wilderness". go count the number of Home Depot, Lowes and other chain 'construction supply' places going up. What is our culture?

Is restricting access, (again so you catch the drift, wilderness will restrict access), good for the culture of hunters and fishermen? Hell, the fishermen have all of Yellowstone park to their quiet selves. We are pushing hunters out by saying they can not drive down logging roads now, and closing trails to motorized everywhere and we wonder why kids are not getting into hunting? Do you think that a six year old is going to take a seven mile hike back to the remote area and enjoy it? Can Grandpa make the hike? Do you think that suddenly at 16 they will say "gee, let me put the video game down and be a responsible hunter"? Getting to drive the 4-wheeler is half the fun for kids, it is the carrot in many cases.

It is a narrow minded outlook to admit that one politician overstepped his bounds in restricting a piece of land, but thinks that making an elevated designation of land will not "take anything away", especially when you see their objective.

Is this a personal attack, well, you called me an idiot, (I do landscaping and make topsoil so am truly a dirtbag) because I cant work a square well enough to be a scum. I am saying you don't have a clue on how wilderness will be implemented, and the additional limits that the designation will bring, and further restrictions that will come in the future.

Protect the existing "Wilderness" designated land, but don't increase it.



[/b]

 

[glassjet]

Do us a favor.... worry about your own backyard....