• If You Are Having Trouble Logging In with Your Old Username and Password, Please use this Forgot Your Password link to get re-established.
  • Hey! Be sure to login or register!

Need advice on purchase (first plane)

Olibuilt

Olibuilt

MEMBER
Montreal, Canada
I there

I'm new to this forum and new to the PA-world.... I don't know much about plane but I'm a mecanic/handyman type of guy and I love project. I just got my pilot license and I'm looking to buy a plane. I flown a couples 172 (boring) , PA-22 short wings 115hp and a J-3 C-90. I would like to own a SuperCub but my budjet is not there yet.

I found this aircraft for under 50k canadian.





Pa-12 Certified airplane 3400 Hours. TT time on engine at last
annual June 12-09 was 430 Hours. Engine is a 0-320-A2B . Wide deck. It is a Lycoming overhaul installed August 19 1995.
New life time wing lift struts installed 2007 .
Aircraft was recovered in 1993. fabric in medium shape, Cleveland brake, bungee suspension, PA-18 tail, no baggage compartment , no flaps , Elt, no radio, 1 owner since 1969, always inside , exterior 7/10 interior original 5/10

***Forgot to say that the PA-12 comes with a nice set of edo's 2000 floats with -12 rigging and float kit (not install on the plane yet)

...would need a seaplane prop and wing tips (I think)...

I would re-do the interior and paint first thing.




Would need some advice....

And average cost for wing tips purchase/installation, what prop and $$ to use on floats, cost to certified floats installation, flaps missing??$?, skylight mod price.... to many question to much information.... no real awnser found yet...

Help me please



What do I do?? I buy a 172 0-300 400smoh on edo's 2000 for the same price and I live a boring life OR I buy this -12...










PA12011.jpg


PA12008.jpg


PA12009.jpg
 
A stock 12 with a 15 year old mid time 150 hp and no mods that needs restoration is worth about 15-25k at the most. In any event, you will have over 110 in her by the time she is up to snuff on floats, guaranteed.

Look before you leap!
 
My first advise would be to take a deep breath. The 12 would be my recommendation but not that 12. Be patient. It's amazing what will come across your path over the next 6 months. Clean 150 hp 12's can be had for not much more if any. It's buyers market you may of heard. Take your time. You can buy the cleanest show piece stock 12 for 45K USD. I own and fly a 12 almost everyday. They are wonderful airplanes and you won't regret owning one, you love yourself for buying one but take your time and spend you money wisely. The 108HP 12's are fun flyer's and economical to operate.

Forget the Cont. powered 172. Lycoming or nothing.
 
WHOAAAAAAA. Way over priced and judging by the photos ---------in need of major work. As already been said, there are more than several REAL nice 12's out there for the same money and you may be able to land one with a few mods like flaps, skylight, 18 tail feathers etc. Slow down and look around. Look at some of the planes for sale at Barn Stormers, Trade a Plane and here at SC.Org and ask around here if anyone knows of anyone looking to sell. The resident experts on 18's and 12's are right here. You'll need to have an 12 or 18 expert go and take a look at it and then take a look at the paperwork, logs, 337's etc.

You have a lot of time. Use it wisely--OR---you'll pay for it later.
 
1947 PIPER SUPER CRUISER • $31,500 • ACCEPTING OFFERS • PA12, Cleveland brakes,720 radio, annual done 6/09, two 16 gal tanks, kept in closed hanger,813-685-6254 • Contact Eileen Miguel, Owner - located Valrico, FL USA • Telephone: 813-685-6254 • Posted November 29, 2009 •

PIPER PA12 • $39,500 • FOR SALE • complete airframe rebuild in 08. float fittings to much to list 0320 655 smoh beautiful plane • Contact Dennis S. Matthews, Owner - located Redding, CA USA • Telephone: 530 5245566 . 530 242 5807 • Posted November 24, 2009


on barnstormers.com
 
Forgot to say that the PA-12 comes with a nice set of edo's 2000 floats with -12 rigging and float kit (not install on the plane yet)




It's been a year since I started looking to buy a plane.


The price are much higher here in CANADA. Forget importing an airplane from Usa. Importing fees, inspection, taxes, Tranport Canada requirement etc.....


Take for example this non-certified PA-22 colt converted to ?Clipper Frankenstein? extended wings, Stol kit, o-235 Lyc, 50 SMOH in 2005, 8000+ TTSN, funky instrument, 10 year fabric but peeling paint.... for about 30000$....





005-1.jpg


003.jpg


001.jpg


004-1.jpg
 
Or this boring 1969 172 with 0-300 Cont :roll: 450 SMOH in 2003, 5000 TTSN, float plane with Edo's 2000 + float plane prop. Need a good paint and interior refresh.... 55 000$....



036.jpg


033.jpg


029.jpg




I'm not trying to convince me. I just want say that the market is a lot different here in eastern Canada. We don't have a lot of plane to sale and they are way more expensive.
 
Market for PA-12 in Canada on BarnStormers


1947 PIPER PA-12 X (REF223) • $92,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • 125Hrs TTAF; Engine: Lycoming, 0-290-D2 X, 135HP, 505Hrs SMOH, price: $92,000.00 Cdn. • Contact François (Frank) Leblanc - INTAIRBRAFF LTD, Broker - located Beauharnois Montreal, QC CANADA

PA-12 • $40,000 • SOLD!! THANKS TO BARNSTORMERS • PA-12 Super cruiser 1946. TTAF 2107, STOH 142 hours. 0-235, 115 HP. Crosser over exaust . Sensenich prop, seal struts. Cleveland wheel + brakes. Scott tailwheel. 38 gallons US fuel capacity. Radio King. Transpondeur mode-C. Based at Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada

1946 PIPER PA-12 (REF224) • $78,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • 5284Hrs TTAF; Engine: Lycoming, 0-290-D2, 135HP, 1005Hrs SMOH price: $78,000.00 Cdn Canada

PIPER PA 12 • $97,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • 1946 certified. TAF 3430 hrs, 400 hrs. rebuild in January 2001. Engine Lycoming 0-320 150 hp, 1175 SMO, 400 hrs since verification by certified shop. Floats, wheels, skis, wing tips, 2 doors, 2 gas tanks. interior 9/10 exterior 9/10. • Contact Larry Shepherd, Friend of Owner - located DolbeauMiatassini, QC Canada

Thanks again for your advice
 
Olibuilt: you mentioned wingtips in the context of putting the plane on floats. You don't need special wingtips: you can use the stock tips.

I agree with the other posters: the plane you pictured looks rough, and the asking price of CAN$50,000 seems very high. Just based on the photos, I'd say the plane is worth around US$25,000.

Eric
 
Olibuilt: My humble opinion is the price of under $50 is not that bad for the plane you described. Floats are worth $10 up here in good old Kanada. So now your looking at under $40 for a 12 with what looks like a good engine. Crap good J-3 prices just finally dropped below $30 :roll: A guy in town is just now in the process of bringing a 180 floater across the border so in another couple weeks I can tell you the rough expense to do so. I would guess your lookin at considerable chunk of change to do so.
I would agree with the others thou & suggest patience & caution!
That plane won't be sold & disappear real quick, sales are down as are people with extra $$!
Be sure you check carefully for rust in the lower longerons!
 
Olibuilt,

The best airplane may not be the prettiest airplane. Your desire is to fly, right? You need to find the plane that will allow you to do that without breaking your budget to keep it airworthy. Airplanes in the lowest pricing categories typically require some serious maintenance reserves. I can't determine aircraft value from internet pictures like some other guys. I can barely do it when the plane is sitting in front of me. But I know who to call in my area to get a real evaluation. I suggest you find a good mechanic or experienced aircraft owner that you trust and ask him to guide you.

SB
 
Taledrger,

I have looked at this particular '12. It is in fair condition. It was redone by some guys that would find old planes and then recover them for resale. Not the best recover job that I have ever seen that's for sure. It looks better in the pictures than in person.
It was acquired by the owners of FBO at Aikin, MN and they have been trying to sell it for SEVERAL years. Actually I think it has not been flown much since the date it lists for recover. The owners are very nice people but personally I think they have it priced high. I had made an offer on it a couple years back of close to what they are now asking and they wouldn't budge much. Maybe things are bad enough now they may accept offers of a few dollars under their asking price.

WW
 
Easy does it StewartB, I have the utmost respect for your opinion. Please contrast the airplane under consideration to the airplane in the second link in my last post. Please give me an off the cuff opinion as to which one you would initiate the first pre purchase inspection .

Respectfully,
 
Jeff,

My post had nothing to do with any other referenced airplanes. It was simply sound advice. Anonymous appraisals based on internet photos aren't worth much. If that offends anyone I apologize. The newest PA12 in existence is nearing its 63rd birthday. Paint can't change that.

Stewart
 
The best deal going is to find someone else who wanted a "Project" and poured his heart and wallet into it and now has to sell it. On barnstormers it sure seems like cub prices are WAY down these days! you say you are willing to spend $50K - and get a fixer upper - think about how easy it is to blow $10K fixing up an airplane. I bet if you spend an extra 10K - you'd end up with the same thing you'd get if you bought a $50K airplane and spent $20K fixing it up!
Keep shopping - I sure don't see this economy turning around anytime soon - there will likely be amazing deals over the next 12 months.

10 years ago I needed a truck to haul logs -I bought an old 1968 C-60 firetruck and by the time I was done I had $12K invested in it- now I can't even get someone to come look at it for $2500. It is however a great truck. That's what you want in an airplane - someone who bought a $50K plane and spent another $50K fixing it up only to now find out he's not going to get more than $60K for it - that's the deal you want - and I'm certain if you keep looking you will find many such deals.

And when a good deal comes up - don't let it get away by haggling over a few thousand dollars - step up to the plate and GET IT!

my 2 cents for the day!
cliff in Maine
 
I have to agree with Cliff on this one. My 2000 Top Cub I purchased with about 120 hours on it since new. I have had the least cost of ownership of any airplane I have ever owned or been associated with with this plane - if you don't include property tax - since it is much higher on new planes.

I've been upside down in every other plane I have owned - financially anyway.

sj
 
At the risk of repeating myself---We are all different and our dreams just as different. I've always wanted a supercub but my budget seemed to always be a bit short. I purchased my second choice a PA-12 that was in need of recover. Being over enthusiastic and a bit naive I had visions of a quick recover job ---then go flying. This turned into a 15 year education. First priority was to get two kids through college while working road construction about 80 hours a week(not much time for fixing airplanes). With the cover removed many surprises were encountered. Illegal spar repair--mouse damaged ribs and false spars-warped wingtip bows-some rusted tubing-- and what the heck ---I'll try to make it more like a supercub--150 hp--flaps--18 tail --18 trim--skylite--square top windshield--etc. Really not sure what the grand total was but the life time friends discovered along the way---priceless. Also during the long process I had a dear friend who was willing to share his supercub to (keep my fire lit) and belonged to a club that had a 172 that I could access. If I weren't so darn old I'd like to do it all again. :lol: The 12 has now given me 10 good years of really fun flying. :lol: geezer Dan P.S. Yes my first and likely my only plane---and certainly does everything I am interested in doing with an airplane.
 
Olibuilt,
This has aready been said but I will tell you again. Be very careful don't let your want to own an airplane now cloud your judgment. Have a mechanic that knows 12's in and out do a prebuy inspection no matter what the cost. If you are serious about buying a plane the couple grand or less spent on the inspection is cheap compared to the cost to repair it.
I am telling you this from recent experience. I just purchased a PA-12 a month ago. What a disaster! (financially anyway) I thought I knew a little about planes so I decided against a prebuy inspection.(stupid) :drinking: So I bought the plane and took it to a mechanic to have a few small things done to it before flying it home. To make a long story short I had to refinance the plane to put a new engine in it $16,000 to $20,000. This was on top of logbook discrepancies and my list of "small"personal discrepancies with the AC that needed fixed.

The PA-12 you have pictured looks rough. If it looks rough in picture it is probably even worse in person. Also one more thing to think about and I'll stop lecturing. Every aircraft owner thinks there particular AC (especially when they want to sell it) is a 10 out of 10. Have someone check it out. There will be more planes out there especially with the downturn in the economy. Its worth waiting.

It's good you are asking questions to make an informed decision. Good luck on your search for a plane.
 
There's usually a reason why any plane is for sale, PA-12, supercub, or Cessna. If they really were as "pristine" as their owners say they are, the planes wouldn't be for sale. Whichever plane you end up buying, make sure you've got some "maintenance reserves" set aside to fix it up the way you want it.

windy
 
Need advice on PA-12 purchase

You're getting as many opinions as possible. That's the first step. The second step is to not have the money to buy any aircraft right now. Having the money in your pocket crowds judgement. It's always better to be looking critically, getting as much information as you can---as you're doing here---and then when you see a deal, an honest plane for the money, you'll have no trouble finding the money to buy it. Enthusiasm from seeing the right plane at the right price should be the impetus to buy the plane. From what you've said, having the money could drive you to the wrong plane.

As for the best aircraft for you, that depends on its mission: flying to Montreal to see the Canadiens or taking the family to New York, flying the bush, hunting, fishing, prospecting, trapping, seeing The North. For a float plane, the last place I'd look would be a 172 on floats when so many Piper ragplanes, including the PA-12, would be a better choice. I agree Canadian prices are high and there's little comfort from reading COPA's Canadian Plane Trade. Ask your friends to keep their eyes open, don't be in a hurry to make this big investment. Your plane is out there; it just takes time.
 
windy said:
There's usually a reason why any plane is for sale, PA-12, supercub, or Cessna. If they really were as "pristine" as their owners say they are, the planes wouldn't be for sale.

windy
Click to expand...

So your logic..... If plane is for sale therefore it is not pristine?
 
windy said:
There's usually a reason why any plane is for sale, PA-12, supercub, or Cessna. If they really were as "pristine" as their owners say they are, the planes wouldn't be for sale. Whichever plane you end up buying, make sure you've got some "maintenance reserves" set aside to fix it up the way you want it.

windy
Click to expand...

I'd have to take issue with you here. I've sold some petty damn nice airplanes, for reasonable prices, just because I wanted to try something different. I think anyone who ever saw either of my RV's, my Colt, my Citabria or my 170B would agree. ;)
 
Olibuilt,
The others have all given good opinions. It is difficult to assess reality from the data in this post. That being said, I observe the following: The fabric does appear to be a bit ratty. The question is why? Poor job to begin with or just abused? The door has had some issues for some reason. It looks like someone broke into it at sometime. There is a stain just behind the landing gear-- is this a fuel leak or a rusted longeron, maybe brake fluid? It is in a hangar that does not appear to be insulated and the photo was taken on a foggy day. You mentioned that you are in eastern Canada, on the coast? near salt water/fog? There could easily be corrosion inside the wings and rust on the tubing.

If the floats are corrosion free and not beat up they are probably worth in the vicinity of $10,000 leaving the plane for under $40,000. That is the number that you need to work from.
 
Virtually no used EDO 2000 float is worth 10K when you can buy brand new, anodized 2000 with hatches and all the latest mods and attachment gear for 15K directly from Kenmore.


See TAP's ad under "floats":

"EDO 2000's - $15,500 (New) While inventory lasts! For the following aircraft: C-170, C-172, 7GCBC, 8GCBC, PA-12, PA-18. (Husky A-1, Husky A-1A, Arctic Tern, Aeronca Sedan) Call for pricing. Floats include: Attach gear, spray rails, dual water rudders, spreader bars, retract system, steering system. Floats are 100% anodized, epoxy primed, and top coated with three coats of aluminum lacquer. Crating and shipping charges not included. Pricing good through December 31st, 2009. Contact EDO Floats, Eric Johanson, WA/(425) 681-1510."
 
I'm not saying that there are no pristine planes out there for sale. They're the needles in the haystack, though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

H
Upgrade 0-235 PA-12 to 0-290D2 Engine mount
2
Replies
30
Views
12K
Rice farmer
R
F
Need advice on PA-12 purchase
Replies
10
Views
3K
Free
F
B
PA-18 to PA-18S
Replies
4
Views
1K
bubb2
B
CubDriver218
Hydraulic ski advice
Replies
24
Views
9K
CubDriver218
CubDriver218
N
What Floats?
Replies
14
Views
7K
CRANMAN
C
Back
Top