Engine failure on lift off

[bob turner]

Never happened to me except in a simulator. But today I got cleared for touch and go instead of takeoff, so I simply took the tower's offer seriously. We all get introduced to engine failures at 300', and they are almost all survivable. But consider one at, say, 50 feet.

I have always been convinced that those flaps extended max performance Vx climbs are not survivable on sudden engine stoppage (like when you un-port the fuel). But I always thought I could get enough energy back with a flaps up Vx climb and a low altitude power loss. Now I suspect that serious airframe damage would be almost inevitable. Chopping the power at 50' gives such an instantaneous sink that I believe the vertical velocity on ground impact would be enough to destroy the aircraft.

Any thoughts?

 

[JimC]

I think so too.
JimC

 

[ulpilot]

I was told something about power failures on takeoff when I was flying ultralights. These are very high drag machines, and a pilot told me a stall would occur almost instantly if you had a power failure while in a max performance climb.

So I went up to 2000 ft and tried it out, Max performance climb, chop the throttle and Wham, almost instant stall! Found out I had all of about 1-2 seconds to get the nose down to prevent the stall, and needed around 50 to 100ft to get enough airspeed back for good control.

Ever since that little experiment I always takeoff with my arm ready to shove the stick forward if I hear or feel anything wrong with the engine. Still do it now that I fly a Cub and even in the Cessna's, something that has become a habit.

I suggest everyone go out and give it a try, at a safe altitude.

 

[Steve Pierce]

I was doing those "hanging on the prop" climb-outs when sj asked me if I had ever gone up high and done that and pulled the power. Made a believer out of me. Thanks sj.

 

[mvivion]

I agree, particularly when you consider the Vx configuration of the Cub. The book suggests full power, 45 mph and full flaps.

In that configuration, or frankly, in any configuration that is even close to that, you are going to come down HARD if you're at 50 feet or so when the engine pukes.

I once had a check airman pull the mixture to idle cutoff on a C-185 floatplane at about 50 feet after a normal takeoff. I had to shove like hell, and we still "arrived" really hard. After I got the seat cushions out of my, er...never mind.....I announced that the flight check was over. We flew back to base and I told the training manager that I would NEVER fly with that guy again. We had mechanics take a really good look at the plane, but it was okay probably only because it was on floats. The guy argued he wanted to show me what a low level engine failure was like. I told him doing so with throttle might have been a better option. Duh.

A REAL engine failure at low altitude in ANY kind of climb will REQUIRE a fairly enthusiastic PUSH to keep from huting yourself. At that point, damaging the airplane may be inevitable--what you should be trying to do at that point is SURVIVE. As Steve says, go to altitude and give it a try.

Also, remember this: When you are practicing this maneuver at altitude you have two distinct advantages--first, you know its going to happen, which shortens the reaction time by important seconds. and second, the engine is still idling and the prop is still turning by engine motivation, and is still generating a little bit of thrust, or perhaps more accurately stated, isn't producing as much drag as would be the case if the engine truly failed.

This one has killed a lot of pilots. Frankly, unless you are seeing trees in the TOP of your windshield, there is no valid reason for max performance climbs close to the ground, in my opinion. Practice at altitude, and use em when you NEED them.

MTV

 

[fobjob]

That's why I always like to take off with a little "money in the bank" with airspeed. Most people I know have biffed it on takeoff, not landing.....including me.....
Now I figure the runway is there to be used....every foot of it, if necessary....

 

[Bill Rusk]

http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=9366&highlight=square+corner

 

[High Country]

Bill, I reread your old thread and I love the square corners analogy.

The question I have is about the flap settings which was discussed on the old thread and also fits in with the subject matter in this thread. Does full flaps allow you to climb higher in a given distance? Opinions?

 

[Josh]

At 50 feet, max climb-out, add a 45 letter banner and 250 ft of rope behind you, and engine failure, now what?
Better be quick with the release hook and pushover!

 

[Snert]

There is an old aviation term that I seldom hear anymore. It's called "Plus ten for Mom and the kids" If you are an instructor and teaching best angle climb why not teach it 45 "Plus ten for Mom and the kids" If I was an examiner and the applicant said the target speed is 45 but we are going to fly it "Plus ten for Mom and the kids", I'd have to be impressed.

There are a lot of situations where if your engine quits it ain't going to be pretty.

 

[mvivion]

High Country,

Full flaps is the configuration called out by Piper for the Super Cub. That configuration and 45 mph does result in an impressive deck angle, and very little forward motion, but is it really the best? I don't know.

I assume Piper did the testing, so I'd default to them.

MTV

 

[bob turner]

I, too, suspect Piper did some testing. They tweaked their little Cub and actually came up with a winner. But I have heard that a lot of the test data no longer exists. What a shame.

I know for sure that an engine failure at full flaps nose up in a Super Cub would be fatal at low altitudes. What I didn't know for sure is that in the little J3 at 50 indicated and 50 feet altitude I personally do not have the skill to yank the power to idle, pitch over, and flare. I am ashamed to admit that, before yesterday, I had never tried it. On power reduction I felt an instantaneous deceleration and mush - just what a reasonable pilot should expect. What convinced me is the amount of power I had to stick back into the system for a normal flare. If you ever try practicing this, remember if it actually quits when you simulate power loss, you are going to break something really badly.

And as Mike says, when you do this on purpose, you are prepared, and the forward shove is almost simultaneous with power loss. If it quits when you are not expecting it, you do not have time for normal reaction.

 

[Rob]

Hi Josh,
It's a bit off topic.... but I'll bite! If you are approaching your banner flat and slow ala "van wag....r" then you are right. you are in fact trying to climb out with a sign and will probably get bit if the engine pukes. If you are chopping the power at the apex of the climb like the "super stinson" crowd while the sign catches up... same deal... the way I was taught for cubs never left me fearing an engine failure, but maybe I am missing something? Here's the drill:
Approach the poles in a shallow decent at approx 80, no flaps, power goes smoothly to full prior to the poles with a sharp rotation to swing the hook. Now you're in a zoom with gobs of energy carrying nothing but a rope for 300' of lead, almost 20' of tow hook, and anywhere from 7'-50' of bridle (depending on what you're towing). a properly laid out banner or properly folded billboard should "feel" weightless for at least the first half if you did it all right. That puts you about 500' agl when you're pushing the nose over and really feeling the banner. and if you thought about banner placement in your setup it also places you about midfield. Engine pukes? Pitch the sign, and circle to land, c'est la vie... Clients mad, engine builders happy, sounds pretty much SOP to me....
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/500/Banner_pick_up_at_LGB.asf
by the way the slight roll to the left was NOT a torque issue, it was a side step to keep the sign out of the fence

 

[duckhunter]

engine failure on liftoff

It happened to me in a j-3 at 100 ft with a large passenger in the front,stick all the way forward and i started flying just in time to make a hard landing, any lower when the engine quit and it would have been ugly, i don't think it would be pretty in the c185 at max climb with flaps 20 and an aft cg now matter how high you were.

 

[moneyburner]

Saw the results of this happening to a PA-12 at Kasilof. A guy who I was acquainted with had it happen to him doing T&Gs - he got about seventy feet or so at mid-field and the engine coughed and it just dropped: left about a ten foot skid mark, both wingtips on the ground, two flat tires, splayed gear, the seat on the floorboards and him with a very, very sore back and a long relationship with a full-body cast. He climbed out, if I remember right, but no one found him for quite some time. I don't think he's flown any since - the airplane is hanging in my buddy's shop some fifteen years later. Must have really hurt in more ways than one.

Be careful out there brothers and sisters.

 

[Jerry Gaston]

MTV Is what I'm hearing from you is that Piper suggest full flaps for takeoff?

 

[StewartB]

Does anyone know how to sort NTSB crash records to isolate departure engine failures? The proportion of total engine failures that's attributed to departure would be an interesting statistic.

The key to surviving your topic situation is recognition and response to the power loss. Hesitation kills. Your Vx should be high enough above stall speed to allow the transition to a controlled descent providing you take appropriate action. My old BFR instructor used to pull throttle on climb-out. His primary purpose was to train me to make a 180* (return to strip) turn with minimum altitude loss. I liked that drill. I admit I liked it more when I knew it was coming, but that first time he did it unannounced it sure got my attention. My lower-the-nose reflex was immediate.

My response to the topic is that you should have no problem maintaining control of the airplane, but what's in front of you may not be landing-friendly real estate. That's the danger.

Stewart

 

[Widebody]

Full flaps take off, AOA to achieve 45mph, engine out at 50ft. Are you going to CRASH??? Well I would think so!! That's about the dumbest take off maneuver I can think of. This kind of take off has nothing going for it, you have nothing but DRAG = extended T.O. roll, low airspeed, and high AOA and you won't get any of it back in 50ft. If Piper actually said it, it's no wonder they get sued. I'm not bashing any posts or the topic, I just don't want some student pilot or fresh private getting killed. Practice won't help you out of this one. A normal take off, engine out at 50 ft. should be an uneventful landing in a Cub, assuming you don't panic. (Remember) power off - pitch down - IMMEDIATELY.

Brad

 

[mvivion]

Brad,

You are right, of course. The Piper "flight manual" for the Super Cub does NOT recommend full flaps for takeoff, to my knowledge.

It does, at least in some versions however, describe the "obstacle clearance" procedure (at least I think that's the verbiage they used instead of Vx) as 45 mph and full flaps. This is found in two places, as I recall. I don't have a Cub manual handy, but it takes a little hunting to find the information for Vy and Vx on these older airplane designs.

I did not mean to suggest that this is a good practice, in fact, my point was precisely what you suggested: DON'T try steep climbs.

Vx is defined as the maximum climb for a given distance forward motion. That may in fact be accomplished at 45 mph and full flaps in a Cub, but it would not be my choice anywhere close to the ground, and I can't imagine anywhere else you'd need it. Therefore, it may be purely hypothetical.

Carefully read your Flight manual and you'll find this in a couple different places. One, as I recall says use full flaps for maximum climb angle, the other spot says use 45 mph for the most altitude gain over a given distance. It's not worded exactly like that, but that's the drift.

MTV

 

[Widebody]

Vx is defined as the maximum climb for a given distance forward motion. That may in fact be accomplished at 45 mph and full flaps in a Cub, but it would not be my choice anywhere close to the ground, and I can't imagine anywhere else you'd need it.
MTV

My point exactly, this is a last ditch effort when nothing else is working in an emergency situation. It don't need to be practiced because you can't recover from it at low altitude. I wish I would have clicked on Bill Rusk's Square Corners before my first post, So I could have said, VERY NICE. There's just some things you can't do in a Cub and you don't need to experience it to find out, listen and learn from others and finally, just stop and think about it for a moment 'cause common sense is a great tool.

Brad

 

[Lasater]

Engine failure on take-off

I remember the manual on our 1979 PA-18 stating that the procedure for a short field take-off was to accelerate to 45 mph (I don't remember the speed exactly) and then pull full flaps to lift off and climb at Vx to clear the obstacle and then retract the flaps. The airplane and the manual are long gone, so I am only going by memory.

After a few tries at that procedure, I thought it was best left to Alaskans. The good thing in Texas is that the obstacle is seldom higher than a three and a half foot barbed-wire fence.

I have done low level engine out practice in both a 210 and Caravan simulators. I agree with what is posted here, it was very hard to not activate the "crash" screen. After screwing it up the first time in the Caravan (doing it without warning), I asked for a few more shots. The recovery on an engine out is still hard to do quick enough even on a normal take-off when you know it's coming. Speed is money in the bank.

 

[bob turner]

That's the point StewartB missed. Recovering from an engine failure at Vx is not difficult if you are a couple hundred feet off the ground. But if you have a lot of confidence in your engine, just try to pull the throttle to idle at 50 feet. You will need about 3/4 throttle about a heartbeat later, and if your engine does not respond, you will break something. I will try it at Vy this week and report back. (that will be 60 in the J3, one pilot)

It has been said here before - the C180 also recommends two notches and 65 mph for obstacle clearance. If you think recovery in a Cub is "iffy", just wait until you see the deck angle on this one.

Which brings me back to - why do all C180 drivers go out at flaps 20 on long paved strips? They seem to pin it on the deck until about 60, then climb out at 80, all with flaps in the breeze (presumably helping them in some way?)

 

[S2D]

One would think from the 45mph and full flaps recommendation, a Supercub would do that in any situation, but I've seen quite a few at this scenerio, where one has to actually push the nose down and get rid of a notch of flaps to get the cub to climbing again otherwise you just sit there and mush along.

 

[mvivion]

S2D,

Too many coyotes in the back?? :lol:

MTV

 

[S2D]

S2D,

Too many coyotes in the back?? :lol:

MTV

(my wife doesn't like to wake up with fleas all over her so I don't put them in the back anymore)

 

[mvivion]

Picky, picky, picky.....

MTV

 

[sj]

I was in the back seat of this plane during a BFR and someone else captured this shot. I was saying "stick forward stick forward" quite rapidly. As we later determined (slightly higher) we were still a little way from the stall, but the climb certainly was very mushy due to the high angle of attack.

I think an engine failure at that point would have led to us picking ourselves up in a puddle of blood.

sj

P.S. This is a TAKEOFF shot, not a touch and go shot.

 

[Jerry Gaston]

If you were in the back seat I think you better go on a diet before your next BFR Steve.

 

[mvivion]

Well, Steve, us short guys might consider you "over-tall" so to speak anyways, and an engine failure at the point that photo was taken would probably shorten you up some....

MTV

 

[jcrowles]

Engine failure on liftoff

A few years back , I had an airline CFI giving me a BFR and annual CAP. check ride in a Cessna Birdog on floats on a hot summer day. On take-off on a rather short lake he chopped the power on me at about 100FT. He heald the throttle closed on me and we dropped like a rock. I managed to salvage the touchdown, but we really hit hard. He was a little shook when the commotion settled down, and I was pissed !! He gave me no warning of what he was going to do !! We pulled over to shore and got out to see if there was any damage. All the turn buckles were loose and things were a little out of wack. Managed to tighten everything up and head back home. His advice was to keep my mouth shut and don't say anything, cuz he could lose his job. That was over 25 years ago and this is the first time I have revealed it !! Don't know what happened to him - never saw him again !!!