Engine Options (4S)

[Rob]

The OP stated he wants to run LOP. That means fuel injection and to make it better, electronic ignition. In each of those he can choose mechanically driven or fully electronic. Fully electronic provides the best fuel and spark control. Regardless of whose case and cylinders a guys chooses, fuel and spark make them go. Fuel and spark are a big part of an engine decision. Neither compromises engine reliability.

Agreed, being experimental makes selecting FI infinitely easier if that's one's desire, and just like Kirk's examples, there are examples of the same engines with 70 years of track record to reference and build on. That's essentially the grand daddy of your own engine. EI would not be my first choice, but would certainly not be a show stopper for me either, as the engines I am referencing could go from EI to mags in a pinch to get one home.
Again, this is just how engines fit in to my flying world, and a perspective I was offering the OP. When I am in your haunts I have all my time accounted for +/-. I do not want to leave an airplane behind and comeback 3 months later for it, if I can utilize a more forgiving 'core' that allows virtually any component up to and including the whole shooting match to be replaced during my initial excursion.
And again, I am grateful for guys like you venturing off the beaten path. The ONLY metric I know for 'reliability' is time in service. There are engines in the OP's list that have less time in service for their entire fleet than is on a single engine of some of the examples I'd prefer. But without guys that venture ahead, guys like me don't get to see those hours build up.

A dozen years ago, right after my first solo float flying my 180hp SuperCub, same day, my instructor made me fly is Cessna 172 floatplane equipped with a 0-300. 2 persons, fuel gas, no baggage, hot calm day. After what seems like a minute an a mile long takeoff, we struggle to gain some altitude.

You have to be very talented to fly an under power plane. I think power is a safe assurance in my case...

Hi Oli,

I understand your intent with this, I also share your love for converting as much fossil fuel into raw motivation as I can afford. Having said that, as a person who spends the vast majority of my day job flying things that for the most part need to be coaxed in to the sky I must point out that this mind set is flawed. They all turn to pigs when you load them up. It's the very reason we have the AT-802, when Lelands first offerings hauled less than half as much. We need to haul more, so we bolt on more power and wing. Then we haul more, not a little .... a lot, oh ****, we're back to square one, so more power and more wing...lol

Identify the honest mission, make the rest fit. That's my solution to the most smiles per mile.

Take care, Rob

 

[Mudofficer]

Wonderful feedback from all. Very much appreciate and respect this insight.

Obviously, I am chasing after reliability and efficiency not speed and power for power's sake, which makes the detailed notes about these options very helpful. I have a request in to Thunderbolt, AC Aero and will add Aerosport power.

Generally the direction I am leaning is fuel injection (for LOP), Constant speed Prop (these ones from MT Propeller Sywagon8a?), and at least partial electronic ignition (i.e, emag and bendix) or full EFII.

Typically fly from the PNW with precious cargo (wife and dog) to grass and dirt, but have a lots of river bars and some extended camping trips in remote areas. BYOB (bring your own barrel) Mogas fueling at my home field, so that is a requirement as well. I will report progress!

 

[skywagon8a]

Constant speed Prop (these ones from MT Propeller Sywagon8a?),

That's one, this is another worth looking at: https://www.propellor.com They may or may not have one for whatever engine you choose. I inquired about one for an 0-360 which they could not provide. I do like the mechanism though.

 

[stewartb]

If you can, request a front governor pad. Get a Hartzell or MT hydraulic prop.

 

[supercub83a]

That's one, this is another worth looking at: https://www.propellor.com They may or may not have one for whatever engine you choose. I inquired about one for an 0-360 which they could not provide. I do like the mechanism though.

What engines do those propellors fit? Could you put one on an io-375? Maybe a UL power engine?


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

 

[Olibuilt]

That's one, this is another worth looking at: https://www.propellor.com They may or may not have one for whatever engine you choose. I inquired about one for an 0-360 which they could not provide. I do like the mechanism though.

When did you ask?

I've been quote from them for one electric hub for my O-360 but I've lost the email ... It was expensive and heavy for me at that time. Decide to go another route.

From New Zealand I think. Built to receive 2 modified Whirlwind blades.

 

[skywagon8a]

What engines do those propellors fit? Could you put one on an io-375? Maybe a UL power engine?

They've changed their web site. now it appears the biggest Lycoming is a 0-235. They did have larger sizes last year. Send them an E-mail.

 

[skywagon8a]

When did you ask?

It was about a year ago Oli. Yes it was expensive, but they all are now.

 

[Mr. Ed]

Mudofficer,

As mentioned previously, when considering the engine make sure there is a compatible prop that suits your needs. I bought a Titan IO340 with 9:1 compression because it dropped into my lap at a price I didn’t want to turn down. I didn’t even think about a prop at that point. Finding a constant speed prop with any data to back up compatibility has taken me months. Manufacturers may tell you that a certain prop will work but when you ask for data your emails go unanswered.

I finally found a prop but it took some extra testing on the manufacturers part…much appreciated by me. Now all I have to do is send a suitcase full of money and wait five months for delivery. Maybe my wings will be covered by then so the timing might work out.

 

[Olibuilt]

It was about a year ago Oli.

Mine was in 2019. Maybe they stop making it for a 360 ??

 

[skywagon8a]

Mine was in 2019. Maybe they stop making it for a 360 ??

That was the impression I got in my Email. They said they'd let me know and I never heard from them again.

 

[hunt/trapak88]

I’ll be using a 9-1 compression conical flat tappet 0-375 on mine. And running 8445 and 9034/5 Cattos. I’m hoping the “light” front end isn’t going to be an issue. If so I’ll try the 1A200 90” Mac. Haven’t decided on ignition yet.

 

[Dave Calkins]

I am late to this thread. So let me say hello before I ask why Lean Of Peak operation is important to you Mudofficer.

Thanks. d

 

[stewartb]

I’ll be using a 9-1 compression conical flat tappet 0-375 on mine. And running 8445 and 9034/5 Cattos. I’m hoping the “light” front end isn’t going to be an issue. If so I’ll try the 1A200 90” Mac. Haven’t decided on ignition yet.

What’s a “flat tappet?” Standard as opposed to roller? I haven’t heard anyone use that term before.

 

[stewartb]

To the LOP question? My book flow is 9 gph for ROP, which nets about 95 mph. If I spin the mixture back to 6 gph, the temps drop, the engine is smooth, and I can go about 45 miles further on that 9 gallons. Two components make it work well. Fuel injection and electronic ignition. If the FI happens to be EFI? The results are even better. What’s not to like?

https://gami.com/paulferraris_leanofpeaksaga.pdf

 

[Skywalker]

Anyone interested in the Airmaster prop (post #36) should call Bud Yerly at Custom Flight Creations (Florida). Bud is knowledgeable and responsive, before and after the sale.

 

[Dave Calkins]

Stewart, I figured the OP has HIS reason for wanting LOP ops. His answer to that question will help him with an engine choice.

As to efi and ei, one 409 that I flew was in a great flying Valdez hotrod and pulled harder than any of em I touched, but I couldnt shake the fear of a forced purchase of it from crashing it due to an electrical issue. I didn’t like THAT! or the weight! or the fuel pumps! or the little mixture rheostat knob with no tactile feedback.

But we went into the Bush and on mountain tops with that plane. so I felt kindof “alone” without ole reliable carb and mags

 

[stewartb]

The locals learned a lesson when the blue one crashed from an EFI issue. I think it’s safe to say that vulnerability has been addressed. I envy the need for cowl louvers to maintain CHT. Who’d have thought that would be a problem with hotrod engines? I never stop learning, and Lord knows we have a rich Cub community to learn from. Pretty friggin cool if you ask me.

How’s the project going?

 

[hunt/trapak88]

What’s a “flat tappet?” Standard as opposed to roller? I haven’t heard anyone use that term before.

Correct. I’ve just always just referred to a “standard” cam as that compared to the roller setup. Which I didn’t want and seems like most cases now when sent off for overhaul are getting machined for a roller setup. I may be talking out my ass but believe a lot of new cases are going away from it..? I had a roller cam in my 360 C4P which I had no idea it was until we went to overhaul and found out the price difference between flat/roller. Since no real performance increase I decided to just stay standard if you will.

I think there are cheaper options than the above now but still more coin than flat..

 

[stewartb]

As far as I know there’s no HP advantage to one or the other. Lycoming switched due to cam follower spalling, or so I’ve read.

I’ve never heard of a Cub builder worrying about an 0-375 being too light. I hope your build meets your expectations.

 

[hunt/trapak88]

That’s what I understood too. I think with rollers maybe a different grind can be used? But when i ordered case/crank from Aerosport and asked if there was a specific cam profile that may give a little more grunt he said there’s not enough material on the base of the lobe to allow any fancy grinds. That may just pertain to a standard, not sure.

 

[hunt/trapak88]

Only reason I mention the front end being possibly on the light side is due to the Javron 4 place stretched 19” or 20”. My concern was being pretty tail heavy. But I’m sure Jay has that all figured out since 360’s is what seems will be used on most. And SQs as you know are stretched and no one seems too mind..

 

[stewartb]

I believe everything Lycoming does now has roller lifters. I don’t think the cams are any different but I have no knowledge to back that up. My old Superior engine’s roller lifters could be removed from the top. I don’t know if Lycomings can, but given the fear of corrosion? Easy inspection is a good thing.

In the car world roller cams allowed stronger springs which combatted floating valves at high RPMs. Not really a factor in airplane engines at 2700 RPM. Much different in an F-1 V10 engine spinning 20,000 RPM (on unleaded pump gas, and they’re hybrids!) Or a 500 cubic inch dragster making 12,000 HP on alcohol fuel. 339 mph in 1000’? Holy ****!!!! Airplane engines are SO far behind in technology. Thank the FAA for that.

 

[Mudofficer]

Stewart, I figured the OP has HIS reason for wanting LOP ops. His answer to that question will help him with an engine choice.

I want efficiency. Have been flying an 0-540 LOP after installing an EMS and fuel flow meter and it just makes sense after going from 12-15GPH to 8-10GPH. I do not see fuel prices coming down over the course of this aircraft's lifespan. So, mogas LOP is one of my goals.

The EFII option also puts this on the table with the variable timing and weight savings, but I need to keep learning about these and how they have been improved over earlier models.

 

[Dave Calkins]

Thanks for the answer Mudofficer. It came to mind that a guy wants efficiency as to fuel burn.

Stewart, the project is in the fuselage coating stage. The stage where I bead blast! This one (PA-14 EXP) will get a once run AerosportPower o-360 A3A and whatever prop I can find when the plane is ready. Constant speed prop (Hartzell TrailBlazer) is a serious thought. Acquisition of that is down the road a bit.

 

[stewartb]

Fun. Planning to tweek the AOI?

 

[Dave Calkins]

done

 

[Mudofficer]

Adding the new Rotax 916is to this list. 200lbs, Avgas, Mogas, E10 capable. Air and water cooled, EFI, EMS, etc. with a 2000hr TBO. Checks a lot of boxes. I have no qualms buying my fuel at costco if that becomes an option.