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Experimental Insurance in Alaska

N

Narwhal

PATRON
ANC
Hi,

Anyone flying an experimental in Alaska, would you be willing to share or recommend someone that can sell an insurance policy for a carbon cub? BWI said they cannot sell me a policy (quote:"all markets declined to offer a quote due to no AK experimentals or due to the make/model"). Avemco said they will not insure an experimental that is worth more than 250k, even if I was willing to accept only 250k hull coverage. Maybe it is also because it's a carbon cub fx3, which seems to have a bad accident history overall, but I'm not sure.

11,000 hours, 60 tailwheel and 14 make/model (factory approved 5 day training course), ATP/CFI age 39. Not sure if my lack of tailwheel played a role, but if so they didn't say so. I'm renting a citabria as much as possible while the airplane is finished to try and bulk up on tailwheel time (they seem not to value PA18 time any more than Citabria).

Any help is appreciated. Would prefer not to fly uninsured but if there is no other choice...
 
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Contact Teri at NorthWest Insurance Group, Hillsboro, OR. They insure my FX-3 with Starr. Don't know if AK has any special requirements. PM for for email or phone of you can't find them.
 
Narwhal said:
Hi,

Anyone flying an experimental in Alaska, would you be willing to share or recommend someone that can sell an insurance policy for a carbon cub? BWI said they cannot sell me a policy (quote:"all markets declined to offer a quote due to no AK experimentals or due to the make/model"). Avemco said they will not insure an experimental that is worth more than 250k, even if I was willing to accept only 250k hull coverage. Maybe it is also because it's a carbon cub fx3, which seems to have a bad accident history overall, but I'm not sure.

11,000 hours, 60 tailwheel and 14 make/model (factory approved 5 day training course), ATP/CFI age 39. Not sure if my lack of tailwheel played a role, but if so they didn't say so. I'm renting a citabria as much as possible while the airplane is finished to try and bulk up on tailwheel time (they seem not to value PA18 time any more than Citabria).

Any help is appreciated. Would prefer not to fly uninsured but if there is no other choice...
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I have my experimental pa-12 insured through Falcon in Soldotna, they have been great to work with. Mine is not a carbon cub or worth 250k so you may have different results. I also think they use the same underwriters... good luck!
Chris
 
Make sure whatever company you go with insures your experimental "in flight". I recently renewed the policy on my Murphy Rebel with Old Republic. One of the other places that gave me a quote stated that there was no " in flight" coverage. Yes, stupid, why would I pay more than I currently am and not have coverage in flight. They said I could taxi all I want but as soon as I am in flight, coverage stops. They mentioned that this only peertained to experimentals. Needless to say, I stuck with my current policy holder.
 
Thanks for the recommendations, I left a message with northwest insurance group and made contact with falcon in Soldotna who I'm in the process of filling out forms for. I'll look over any policy carefully for both in-flight coverage and helicopter recovery. I will check out Old Republic as well.
 
Narwhal said:
Thanks for the recommendations, I left a message with northwest insurance group and made contact with falcon in Soldotna who I'm in the process of filling out forms for. I'll look over any policy carefully for both in-flight coverage and helicopter recovery. I will check out Old Republic as well.
Click to expand...


Keep in mind, once you fill out a brokers form and supply an “N” number and they shop for quotes you are then locked out from using a different broker. So, that being said, pick one agent/broker you like THEN give them your “N” number and have them shop for quotes from the underwriters. The one exception to this is Avemco, since Avemco underwrites (for the most part) their own policy’s always get a quote from them in addition to the quote from your chosen broker.

Kurt
 
Narwhal said:
Thanks for the recommendations, I left a message with northwest insurance group and made contact with falcon in Soldotna who I'm in the process of filling out forms for. I'll look over any policy carefully for both in-flight coverage and helicopter recovery. I will check out Old Republic as well.
Click to expand...

Be sure to understand any limitations they may set during phase 1. I had a big deductible for flight risks until phase 1 was complete. Some will not provide any hull coverage until phase 1 is complete. I also found that two different brokers set quite different minimum experience requirements even though they were both quoting for the same carrier.
 
G44 said:
Keep in mind, once you fill out a brokers form and supply an “N” number and they shop for quotes you are then locked out from using a different broker. So, that being said, pick one agent/broker you like THEN give them your “N” number and have them shop for quotes from the underwriters. The one exception to this is Avemco, since Avemco underwrites (for the most part) their own policy’s always get a quote from them in addition to the quote from your chosen broker.

Kurt
Click to expand...

Thanks, I already got that far with BWI, they shopped for underwriters and came back telling me they couldn't find any so they won't sell me a policy. Not sure what the implications of that are. I've accepted that I may not be able to get insurance, but obviously will get some if I can.
 
If CubCrafters insisted that anyone interested in a FX-3 should get an insurance quote before placing the order there would be a lot fewer FX-3 orders. There is nothing about the FX-3 that makes it a high insurance risk. It's a really well behaved aircraft. It's just that people with more money than tail wheel experience are buying them and wrecking them.
 
We had a thread about this a couple of weeks ago. Avemco’s limit on my Cub is $200K and includes in flight. They told me they have higher limits for Carbon Cubs but the also have other factors to consider. I’ve been an Avemco customer for 20 years and insuring two planes with them was advantageous. I know the OP has a 182 so the best bet is to go to the 182 insurer for a package deal on two planes.
 
stewartb said:
We had a thread about this a couple of weeks ago. Avemco’s limit on my Cub is $200K and includes in flight. They told me they have higher limits for Carbon Cubs but the also have other factors to consider. I’ve been an Avemco customer for 20 years and insuring two planes with them was advantageous. I know the OP has a 182 so the best bet is to go to the 182 insurer for a package deal on two planes.
Click to expand...

My 182 was with BWI, I sold it though. My history of no claims with them on that airplane held no sway.
 
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Narwhal, if you go with no hull coverage make sure you consider “not in motion” hull coverage. This covers airplane if hangar burns down, collapses, drunk kid in his dads truck drives into it, wind storm and so on. A lot can happen on the ground beyond your control.

Liability coverage is a must but you already knew that.


Kurt
 
Seems like it is getting worse. I am starting to see agents disagreeing with express policy statements and additional charges tacked on after the fact. But I am getting older by the minute, and most insurers now will not even talk to me. 22,000 hours, no claims or violations, but that doesn't count. Turned down for a waiver of subrogation in a Cirrus - too complicated for a lowly Airbus pilot.
 
I spoke with Avemco about two weeks ago and was told they insure Carbon Cubs up to $350K, but that may be conditional. Pilot time in type and location are usually big variables for insurance.
 
stewartb said:
I spoke with Avemco about two weeks ago and was told they insure Carbon Cubs up to $350K, but that may be conditional. Pilot time in type and location are usually big variables for insurance.
Click to expand...

AVEMCO declined to quote for my FX-3 when I had about 100 hours in type. They refused to say why.
 
don d said:
If you can afford a$300k toy airplane, you only need liability.
Click to expand...

I consider that to be an exceptionally ignorant comment. I decided I could afford a $300k toy airplane because I expected to be able to sell it when I got tired of playing with it. I can't sell it if it is broken and uninsured.
 
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stewartb said:
I spoke with Avemco about two weeks ago and was told they insure Carbon Cubs up to $350K, but that may be conditional. Pilot time in type and location are usually big variables for insurance.
Click to expand...

I'll try Avemco again, I just filled out their online application and will see if I get a different result this time!

If you can afford a$300k toy airplane, you only need liability.
Click to expand...

I had typed out a big spiel before your reply that contained my philosophical ramblings on insurance, including my thoughts on self-insuring, but deleted it . Losing the airplane wouldn't significantly harm me financially or retirement-wise, it would just be a major gut punch. I'd like to think that having insurance or not having it would have no bearing on the way I'd operate the airplane, but it would offer some peace of mind.
 
don d said:
If you can afford a$300k toy airplane, you only need liability.
Click to expand...

frequent_flyer said:
I consider that to be an exceptionally ignorant comment. I decided I could afford a $300k toy airplane because I expected to be able to sell it when I got tired of playing with it. I can't sell it if it is broken and uninsured.
Click to expand...
Two opposite approaches to insurance. Each one is applicable to the person making the statement. I happen to be in Don's camp and am well ahead of the financial equation even if there had been a total loss. That has nothing to do with Narwal's desire to find insurance.
 
I realized the downfall of no insurance when I was flying over the white mountains national forest and looked down at no roads and thought man that would really suck to try and get the wreckage out of here with no roads $$$$ helicopter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I just went through this with my newly-finished EX-3, which I consider to be worth north of $300K. As a 30 year customer of Bill White, I called and talked to him (hisownself). He made the comment that Alaska insurance was "impossible" but I imagine he meant the market was limited. I ended up with 3 quotes (4k hours total, 3500 tailwheel, age 71).

AIG (falcon) for $300k hull, $7k/yr with $15K deductible with 3 hours checkout in make and model (requires a trip to Oregon)
AVEMCO $200k hull, $6600/yr with 1k deductible no coverage for the first 10 hours of flight
BWI $300k hull, $14K/yr with $30K deductible


RaisedByWolves said:
I realized the downfall of no insurance when I was flying over the white mountains national forest and looked down at no roads and thought man that would really suck to try and get the wreckage out of here with no roads $$$$ helicopter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I had this thought as well, one place where full coverage really helps.
I went with AVEMCO. I talked to a senior sales guy who told me that AVEMCO has over 300 pilots on the books who are over 90
 
Here’s a scary thought. Aircraft lessors have 340 airliners on lease in Russia. They are not going to get them back, so standby for insurers to raise their rates. That will affect us.
 
Farmer Hank said:
Here’s a scary thought. Aircraft lessors have 340 airliners on lease in Russia. They are not going to get them back, so standby for insurers to raise their rates. That will affect us.
Click to expand...
I too have wondered about those lessors loosing their planes. But I do not see how that would effect insurance losses as it applies to us, when the airframes are still able to fly? Seems to me that is an altogether different type of loss.
 
FWIW, my exp Cub insured at the $200K limit runs $2,689 total. That’s $64 more than my 180 valued at $190K. I’m the only named pilot and can only fly one at a time so the aggregate is the number I’ve shopped. Big tires, big motors, and big props are on my equipment lists.

From my policy summary. My rates went down when I stopped tying down outside. Windstorms and tire slashers made their impact, I guess.

This policy includes these premium credits: Hangar; Claims Free; Multi-Plane; Aviation Group Membership
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Exclusions-

This Policy does not cover bodily injury, property damage or loss:  When your insured aircraft is used for any of the following:
a. towing of banners or gliders;
b. aerial seeding, spraying or dusting;
c. aerial hunting, herding or spotting of animals, birds or fish;
d. powerline, pipeline, traffic, or fire patrol or surveillance;
e. parachuting activities;
f. closed course racing, or practicing or qualifying for a race;
g. police, military, firefighting, ambulance or prisoner transport operations.
Click to expand...
 
stewartb said:
FWIW, my exp Cub insured at the $200K limit runs $2,689 total. That’s $64 more than my 180 valued at $190K. I’m the only named pilot and can only fly one at a time so the aggregate is the number I’ve shopped. Big tires, big motors, and big props are on my equipment lists.

From my policy summary. My rates went down when I stopped tying down outside. Windstorms and tire slashers made their impact, I guess.



Exclusions-
Click to expand...

Interesting that it doesn’t exclude aerial photography. Thought most did. Maybe with the advent of GoPros hanging off so many aircraft, they have backed off that exclusion. Thanks for sharing the detail, Stewart.


Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
Stewart…$2689 is Pretty good for $200k, mine is $2400 from Avemco with $75k hull… I have over 3k taildragger hrs. $2100 of that is hull alone
 
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