First plane Citabria or Pacer?

check out these vids of a pacer doing some off feild and beach stuff note there is 3 people in that airplane a cpl times http://youtube.com/watch?v=feOmjfFm2gs&feature=related



http://youtube.com/watch?v=lsaGvQ-UzN4


http://youtube.com/watch?v=mEQNx0emYZg&feature=related

theres a few more on there but I didnt want to git carried away

Wow! Thanks for all the all the helpful posts. I never expected this much feedback. It has really helped me evaluate what I want/need in a plane. The videos of the Pacer on u-tube were cool. Looks like they were making good use of all the available space in it!

I have flown both the 7GCBC and the Pacer however the Pacer was more years ago then I care to try to remember.

Both the Citabria and Pacer are easy enough to fly the Pacer is a little quicker ground handling then the Citabria but nothing that the average pilot cant get use to pretty quick.

If you are going to Alaska and will be carrying Hunting/Fishing/Survival gear plus passengers the Citabia is not even in the running for the job. As has been stated here it is NOT a bush airplane. It does however do a reasonable job of getting in and out of relatively short strips. The ACA Citabrias that I own have the metal spar and 160 HP engines. They also have aileron spades which make the aileron forces much the same as a C-150 or C-172. Without the spades the aileron forces are much greater. A lot of the old Balanca Citabrias do not have the spades but there is a STC for them. They also have a wood spar that there is an AD out on that requires additional inspection holes and regular inspections. The Citabria 7GCBC IS Certified in both the Normal and Aerobatic Category. If your are going to do aerobatics it is a good idea to lock the flaps in the up position in some way as they can and will deploy with a little down load on them and due to the long wing span the roll rate is V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W. So to say the Citabria is an Aerobatic aircraft is legally speaking only.

If you had posted a month or so ago I could have tried to sell you my Maule but it is already gone. You mentioned that your wife liked the Idea of setting beside you rather than in back of you. My wife actually prefers the back seat in the Citabria to the front of the Maule because there is more elbow room the seat is more comfortable and she can lean her head back against the shoulder straps and sleep.
You ask for some numbers. I have the POH in front of me so I can give you the V speeds for the ACA Citabria.

Vne: Never exceed (Red Line)..…………………………………………….162 mph CAS
Caution Range (Yellow Arc)....………………………………………….….120-162
Max Structural Cruise (Maneuvering)………………………………………120
Normal Operating Range (Green Arc)………………………………………50 - 120
Flap Operating Range (White Arc)………………………………………… ..45 - 90
Stall Speed …………..Flaps Down………………………………………… .....47
Flaps Up……………………………………………51
Best Rate of Climb…………………………………………………………….........78

If you are interested I just listed my two Citbrias for sale in the Classifieds on this site.
As far as the Pacer goes I guess the main thing is there is a lot of TriPacer conversions, some of them very good but some are not what they should be so be careful looking at these.

Good luck!.

Bill M.

Finally the right plane came along. I ended up getting a Citabria 7GCBC. Now to learn how to fly it. I have about six hours in it what a blast! Thanks for all the help.

Great, burn lots of gas and have lots of fun. Glad to here you found a good airplane.

enjoying your 7gcbc

Hope your enjoying your 7gcbc. I bought one back in feb and burned about 1300 gallons of fuel and just starting to get true performance from my 7gcbc. As far as comparisons go with the pacer, I know of one modified pacer that can land as short as me. I have a strong widedeck 150 hp, VGs, 29 gar-aeros, vg's and 80" prop and with little or no wind can get up and down in 500 ft total. With good wind alot shorter. In the next month I'm getting extended cub style landing gear once the FAA approves the attachment points. I will see if the AOA helps even more.

Terry

You did yourself proud! :lol:


From instruction point of view, the citab is a better plane... and will be easier to sell later.

What are you guys saying that you can not fit wife/gear and trap in a citabria???? We do it in cubs, and they are smaller inside! Sheesh.

Once you have some time in that plane and get at least 100 hours in that plane, (hear at minimum 100 hours) you can start adventuring into places off airport and the Citabria will be fine, very docile handling on the ground, easy to move by hand etc.

While learning, strive to place the plane on a spot every landing. Get a feel for how much room it takes to get off the ground. Do this with smooth small imputs on approach, throttle jockys usually don't achieve their spot as much as they think...

Every plane has it's limits. While I like the cub, I don't even consider flying it to Disney World; I would with the C-180 I had...

AS one guy said, by the time you are up here flying, you will figure what you really want/need.

Congratulations on your purchase and welcome to aircraft ownership. You have made a good choice citabria's are great planes. They do well on ski's and can be used for reasonable off field work I think you made a wise choice. One weak point to remember is the single gear bolt for the mains. If your doing lots of off field work you may want to change that out once in a while.

Cub_Driver

For skis, if you can put scout gear on they work better also! Get the angle of attack!

Cub Driver, good tip on the bolts. One guy I know began carrying a spare set with him.

I have a 180 22/20 with a 56 pitch Sensenich prop, V.G.'s demer tips and a stol cuff. Did the fish spotting thing out in Togiak flying off the beaches and did just great. Back then I did not have the Demers nor the V.G.'s. Both those items did more for the plane than the stol cuff. Want to really wake up the Pacer, put the 180 hrsp with the Hartzell constant speed on it, then about the only thing that will beat it is the Super Cub. ( have one of those too). Pacer has more volume space for the load and your significant can be by your side. The Citabria's I have flown all had a "heavy" feel to them, and did not get off as good, nor back on any better, than my 180 Pacer. Been to Alaska 5 times with the Pacer, but once there always wished I had the Cub. Next trip it will be with the Cub and my love will ride in the back, unless she wins the toss, and gets the front for some of the flying fun.

Steve

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Attempting to take off after the engine quit(twice) and not understanding why is gutsy.
pete

Trapper...

Glad things are working out for you! 600' at altitude in a citab is not bad at all!

About taking off with an engine not performing...

Do you store this in a heated hanger? had the temp gone up and down to create some moisture?

The rough terrain causing engine trouble sounds more like water/ice in the fuel system than carb ice.. Get the fuel and fuel system above freezing and start draining some fuel. shake the plane and drain some more to be sure you have it; also drain the carb!

If you can not hanger the bird, put fuel in jerry cans and store them inside over night to warm up, pour through a water block funnel. You do not have long this way, but I have cleaned a fuel system out this way in a desperate situation.

Now for your weekly instructor lesson: if she is not running up properly, it is a good time to shut it down and find the problem!!!!! Being five feet in the air over the end of a bush strip is not a good time to have an engine cough (been there done that don't want to again)

The world of bush flying is as unforgiving as it is rewarding. Impatients, inattention to detail, and ignoring signs of bad things happening can turn your citabria into a pile of junk, and you into a statistic...

So that said, learn from your mistakes... and for reinforcment, please read Flip Flop's thread: you all be carefull out there...

What does a Citabria weigh empty?

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I thought there might be water in the fuel also. I'm going to drain everything to make sure it's clean. I filter all my fuel( water/particulates) and the plane is in an unheated hangar so I didn't think water would be a problem. You guys are right about not taking off if the plane isn't running good. The area I was taking off on was flat as far as you could see so I wasn't to worried about having to land without an engine. I guess I should of clarified that. No way would I have tried to take off in a tight spot without a properly running engine.

My citabria weighs 1200lbs.

Even in an unheated hanger the temp. changes can cause condensation in the tanks. It does not take much to cause a burp.

Think about what happens 15 minutes after takeoff if water goes into the carb and kills the engine?

Even if all appears to be good, that one little known problem can become a catastrophe in a heartbeat... enough lecture

You can not drain the water out until you get it above freezing. Frost, even in the fuel lines going through the cockpit, can become the bane of a pilots existence.

Find a way to warm the bird up for long enough to melt ice out of the tanks, (over night is good), then drain it. Again, drain the carb also just for insurance.

Widebody: a pacer can have the same trouble as the citab in cold weather... so don't try and tell a guy that is actually flying he has the wrong plane. He is another guy that may help fight all the anti aviation folks we have many threads about.. (try the TSA thread for instance)


Trapper, keep on keeping on in a SAFE way.

aktango58 said:

Widebody: a pacer can have the same trouble as the citab in cold weather... so don't try and tell a guy that is actually flying he has the wrong plane. He is another guy that may help fight all the anti aviation folks we have many threads about.. (try the TSA thread for instance)

Click to expand...

I thought this thread was a question on what plane to buy, and asked by a guy who said he was new to flying. I simply gave my opinion on which one I'd buy and that I felt he'd be a better pilot after flying the pacer.

Never read the other posts, so I didn't know that a smart guy like yourself had everything handled here :roll:

Brad

I still like the Pacer to Brad. 1056 empty with a 2000 lb. gross weight and room for everything. Do all the Citabria's have a 1650 lb gross weight?

The 7GCBC can be made to fly almost as slow as a PA-18. I had a Champion 7GCB (same wing as a 7GCBC) on which I installed a set of Ferguson droop tips. I spliced new wood to the spar to eliminate the taper and extend the full height to the tip. Then I made a new full sized rib out of plywood which was attached to the tip. The droop tips were then attached to the new wood tip rib. For this I received a field approval from my friendly FAA guy. In addition I also used a 1A175GM8046 prop and 8:50 tires. The performance increase was tremendous. The aileron response was much better. The Aeronca sloppy aileron response was gone. I was once chasing a military Huey, (statute of limitations is long expired), they were unable to out slow fly me at altitude. I had a lot of short field fun with that plane on floats, Wheels and skis.

Widebody said:

I felt he'd be a better pilot after flying the pacer.


Brad

Click to expand...

Brad, I can agree with you here!

I thought you were referring to his problem of power, and suggesting that piper had this solved on the Pacer.

No insult intended, sorry to poke at you!

Trapperty, you had enquired about source for 7GCBC gear bolts. It depends: Is this the flat steel springs (Steve Wittman/Cessna) undercarriage, or the oleo-strut "no-bounce" with fabric covered vee's?

The no-bounce should be standard AN hardware, and as I recall bronze bushings. You folks who actually KNOW what they're talking about jump in here.

The flat steel undercarriage, which started c.a. 1966?? has three different gear-bolt attachment variants. Talking about the attach at the lower longeron, not the 'tongue' up in the gear box, which should also be carefully inspected.

The first variant was a bent piece of threaded steel rod. Cheap, easy, poor design, prone to cracking. Had two of 'em break on me on Scouts (same design, just taller, stiffer gear), right at the bends, which is a stress-riser point.

The second variant was from Champion, which was a bent-U forging, with standard nuts. Only had ONE of them break on me. The third is the one from Univair, which uses a piece of flat barstock, and high-grade MS bolts and nuts. NEVER had one of those break on me. I don't know what ACA is now using on their new ones. Worth contacting them.

The breaks each felt like a light tap on my heel. Caught the first one on the next preflight. Caught the second one on the postflight, and caught the third one on landing rollout, after the light "tap" on my heel resting on floorboards, remembering what it felt like.

The thing that saved my butt on all three was the previously installed steel rod "cage", which prevented the main gear from rotating aft much. None of these were heavy landings, but there was some moderately rough ground on the principle field, and high landing cycles per hour.

And I DID once have a main gear leg break just outboard of the longeron, which spoiled my whole day, not to mention that wing, the prop, and an engine teardown...

NDT proved a crack at the radius just outboard of lower longeron, disguised under dark colour paint; due to previous "abusive grinding", not reflected in logbooks. Tip o' the day: If you've got spring steel undercarriage, paint it WHITE! And preflight like it was a 100 Hour inspection, especially main and aft undercarriage.

Some of the high-volume Canadian operators keep an entire spare set of gear legs on hand, and send them off for NDT.

The more common trouble spot is cracks at the wheel attach points, so check that carefully, too, eh?

Looks like you're on the right track, doing it right, and asking the right questions on the right forum. All the best!

Thanks, eh? cubscout

Cubscout thanks for the advice. I ordered the gear bolts at Aircraft Spruce. Kinda pricey, with the hardware for them they cost around $400!