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Too important to be MEMBERS ONLY. Overweight flying.

I started that thread (642 over). I chose members only. It was not SJ or any moderator.

Generally I thought I was following the guidelines to put topics pertaining to possible members accidents (paying or not) into the members only area - to keep them out of google and general public searches while we have an "internal" and "frank" discussion of how smart or stupid said person was.

Don't get yer panties in a wad. You'll get more flack for that than for being a non-paying contributor. At least in my book.

SJ and Randy
I started this thread because I believe that all pilots should see these things. I had looked at the site early yesterday and saw a thread titled "642 lbs. overweight" and found it to be in members only. I hadn't read the Oops darn it thread. I read the ADN article yesterday afternoon and found the NTSB report which I subsequently linked here. I think that anything that can keep people safer should not be restricted as to who can view it. Including the lost Argo at Knik.
I figured I'd take flack for being a non paying contributor.

Mike

PS. I re-upped this morning.
 
The two most important aspects of being a paying member have been totally overlooked.

1) you always know what day it is. I'm lost without the calendar.

2) if you wreck your plane you get a free hat! Don't tell me that won't make you feel better...

Rene
 
Well, frankly I don't give a hoot who you support with your hard earned dollars.

BUT, I do care about the subject of overweight and out of CG flight ops. And, yes, I speak from experience....as an ex government pilot, I've legally operated several aircraft in excess of their legal maximum operating weights, so I know of what I speak. That's not meant to be insulting to anyone, the point is, I know what a heavy airplane flies like.

First, there are TWO very different and distinct issues here: All Up Weight (I always liked deHavilland's terminology as opposed to the term gross weight) is but one issue. The other issue is Center of Gravity. And, I find that a lot of pilots have some serious misconceptions about operating weights and many of them don't even think about CG.

All Up Weight first:

1) Frankly, you are pretty unlikely to cause an in flight structural failure by operating an airplane in excess of it's certificated maximum weight. These things (the airplanes) are seriously overdesigned, and are tested to sustain some incredible stresses. So, the one thing that many pilots seem to fear in their heart of hearts regarding operating at high weights--structural failure, is probably the least likely outcome.

2) What IS a guaranteed consequence of operating at weights in excess of the manufacturer's recommended maximum weight is that the PERFORMANCE of that airplane WILL be seriously compromised. This will be manifested in a LOT of different characteristics. The airplane will take significantly longer to get airborne, and it's climb rate may be severely compromised. Both of these factors may be seriously problematic, particularly in an off airport operation, where runway lengths and obstacles may present very real dangers to an airplane whose performance is compromised. And, here's the problem: Many new airplanes have excellent performance data, and the thinking pilot will develop similar data for an airplane like the cub, which doesn't have a lot of good performance data in its Pilot Handbook. The problem is, those performance charts only go up to the maximum operating weight. After that, you're a test pilot....a seriously underpaid one, at that.

3) BUT, there are other potentially serious effects of high weights on an airplane's performance as well. Consider that as you load the airplane to heavier weights, the airplane will fly at a higher angle of incidence, which changes the flow of cooling air through that pressure cowling and engine up front. Yes, I've seen CHTs go right on up to max in airplanes on floats on a warm day. So, you have to lower the nose....which further reduces your climb rate. After six full circles, maybe you can clear that ridge....unless of course, you get hit by a downdraft. Can you outclimb that downdraft at this weight? Any data to support that notion?

Now please don't go out and tell the whole world that I said you can't break an airplane by overloading it....I have no doubt that focus, determination, and talent can accomplish structural failure. And, remember, while you're operating at essentially one G in level cruise flight, one of those nasty little bits of turbulence can dramatically increase that G loading, at least momentarily. I once watched a Super Cub with two aboard (a high time 135 pilot and his mechanic going out to repair an airplane that pilot put up on the bank of a short lake on takeoff....) make three passes at the Fairbanks International float pond without getting airborne. They made it on the fourth try, and fortunately for them, they were taking off to the south on that attempt, so they didn't have to turn or climb right away, which they would have had they been taking off to the north. I'm sure that mechanic had a LOT of tools in the back of that Cub, and these guys were planning on camping, and I did note that the back seater was holding two boxes which APPEARED to be cases of beer on his lap..... The airplane didn't break, but I'm betting it took them fifteen minutes to get enough altitude to head north.

Okay, now let's talk about Center of Gravity.....

C of G is the Rodney Dangerfield of this topic, in my experience. Most pilots can give you a pretty good idea of what their airplane weighs prior to takeoff, even if it's a "wee bit" high. But, I've talked to quite a few pilots who couldn't give me even a ball park notion of where the CG was on a particular flight, except that "It should be okay".

And, flying an airplane that is outside it's approved Center of Gravity range, particularly one which is loaded aft, is a GREAT way to meet your Maker a wee bit earlier than you planned. For those who would argue that pilots are generally aware of their airplane's CG, just poke around on this web site and ask about the spin characteristics of the Super Cub....you'll see all sorts of folks piping up about getting dual instruction in a Super Cub in spins, or worse yet, having given dual instruction in a Super Cub in Spins. Consider that the Super Cub has both a restricted gross weight and a limited C of G for spins. And, folks, there aren't many Super Cubs out there that can legally fly with two "normal size" humanoids and ANY gas and be under 1500 pounds. Or, forward of that modified C of G.

So, what's the big deal with C of G? First, the vast majority of what you can load in one of these airplanes (most airplanes, actually) is going to move the C of G aft. So, as you load more and more stuff, the airplane not only gets heavier, but it's C of G moves aft.

What are the risks of operating an airplane outside it's C of G envelope? Well, if you're loaded forward of the forward limit, not much. The stall speed will be higher, but typically, to get to a forward C of G, you have to be loaded pretty light anyway, so the stall speed will be lower due to the light load factor on the wings...... And, the good news is that if you DO stall the airplane while it's loaded forward of its C of G forward limit, it'll generally recover from that stall quite readily. In fact, it's actually hard to keep a Cessna 172 with two aboard in a spin, because the airplane tends to recover from the stall unless you hold FULL and COMPLETE control inputs into the spin.

Also, consider that many of the modifications we install on these airplanes (Super Cubs) specifically prohibit spins. Note that the CC-18, while it permits ops up to 2300 pounds, spins are prohibited.

BUT, operating aft of the aft limit is a fish of a totally different scent. While stall speed actually decreases as the C of G moves aft for a given airplane, once you exceed the aft C of G limit, you are a test pilot, and in fact the airplane may not be capable of recovering from a stall. That's not a good thing to discover as you're trying to clear those trees, which are viewable in the TOP of your windshield, because your climb performance is severely limited by the load factor you've subjected the airplane to with all that "Stuff" in the back. Further, aft C of G stalls often tend to give little if any aerodynamic pre stall buffet. So, you may not be able to see it coming.

I believe that many of the "over weight" accidents that we see out there are in fact likely caused by this combination of factors....heavy weight hindering performance and an Aft Center of Gravity precluding recovery.

Consider the gent who tried to take off from Merrill Field a while back with his family and a LOT of stuff in a 206. The airplane didn't fail structurally, but it simply couldn't fly at the angle of attack that he placed it in.

Finally, I can tell you that it is quite easy to get complacent about operating at high weights, and ignoring Center of Gravity, at least to some great degree. I have been guilty of both in past, but no more, thank you. I don't get paid to fly at all nowadays, let alone collect a test pilot's salary. Oh, yeah....test pilots have spin parachutes and wear a parachute on their backs as well when playing with these demons.

So, do I calculate a weight and balance every time I fly? Sorta. I may not do the math every time, but I know precisely how much PAYLOAD (a term not found in the FAA's lexicon, but in my definition, Payload is defined as "Useful Load" minus the weight of the pilot, but then again, some of my bosses haven't considered pilots to be very useful....) my airplane can carry, and I have calculated sample loadings for the airplane. I know very closely how much weight I can carry and where it needs to be placed in the airplane. For these simple little airplanes, that's not too challenging. A Boeing presents an entirely different scenario of course. But, an airplane that's new to me, or a "unique" loading will cause me to drag out the paper and calculator and actually compute a weight and balance.

Hopefully, this little treatise will have put everyone to sleep, and they'll have forgotten about the member/non member nonsense by now....

MTV
 
Just put some money up - this web site is VERY Valuable to anyone with an old Piper or Cessna 180. So, just contribute -- freeloaders should rethink their attitude. Even though Steve is OK with the guys who don't pay, just freeloading.
 
...Hopefully, this little treatise will have put everyone to sleep, and they'll have forgotten about the member/non member nonsense by now....

MTV

Actually I feel asleep cause my BMI is over 30. :roll:

Good words buddy.
 
Mike's post is surely the definitive post on this subject. Most airplanes can be safely operated over gross in benign environments. For instance, there is evidence that the lowly J-3 or Champ came from the factory 100lbs lighter than they are now, with the only chnge being Stitts instead of Irish linen. Once you understand a bit about these airplanes, you learn that two guys and full fuel works just fine at sea level, and maybe one guy, full fuel, and a bedroll and guitar will struggle southbound out of Flagstaff on a hot day.

I agree - pay attention to your CG - but more importantly ( as Mike pointed out) figure out where your performance starts to deteriorate, and respect that. Last week we were 400# below gross at an 8000' density altitude. Still, it was carefully planned with proper leaning and an abort point in mind.

On the other topic, the one I can't figure out is the poster who is seeking advice, yet restricts the thread. And yes, you guys have solved quite a few thorny problems for me - saved me thousands on a 180 tail re -bush.
 
Okay I've got a CG question. When I'm near/at gross I calculate CG for both full tanks and near empty so I understand how it changes - and to see if it goes out of CG (which I've never seen). So the question, if it's in CG with full fuel can it go out as fuel burns off?
 
Okay I've got a CG question. When I'm near/at gross I calculate CG for both full tanks and near empty so I understand how it changes - and to see if it goes out of CG (which I've never seen). So the question, if it's in CG with full fuel can it go out as fuel burns off?

It depends on the airplane.

MTV
 
CG will move during flight as fuel burns off on many airplanes, depending where the fuel tank used is in relation to C of G.
 
If memory serves me correctly, fuel in a SC is at 23 inches so as its consumed the cg will move forward slightly. Of course as the aircraft weight goes down the cg range window also moves forward. Net result in a cub is that fuel weight has negligible impact on the effective cg or the handling characteristics of the aircraft, other than making it heavier.
 
I miss the days when this site was focused on airplanes. I have no desire to "belong" to a good old boys club. When I associate with my membership clubs I go out of my way to make visitors feel welcome and comfortable. The same should be true here. I have a good deal of respect for a few occasional posters who haven't "joined" this site. My respect is based on contribution of knowledge, not money.

For all of you who criticize any pilot who has made a fatal mistake? I guess you must never have made any yourselves. Most of us have gotten away with a bad decision or some bad luck. We do what we can to be safe but there is never a guarantee. I didn't know Mr. Meuller and from talking to a few friends who did, it was my loss. I wish his survivors well. To anyone who flies small airplanes, I suggest you plan and practice your emergency egress routines in case you have an unfortunate encounter with the ground and need to exit quickly. None of us is as young and agile as we once were.
 
I miss the days when this site was focused on airplanes. I have no desire to "belong" to a good old boys club. When I associate with my membership clubs I go out of my way to make visitors feel welcome and comfortable. The same should be true here. I have a good deal of respect for a few occasional posters who haven't "joined" this site. My respect is based on contribution of knowledge, not money.

For all of you who criticize any pilot who has made a fatal mistake? I guess you must never have made any yourselves. Most of us have gotten away with a bad decision or some bad luck. We do what we can to be safe but there is never a guarantee. I didn't know Mr. Meuller and from talking to a few friends who did, it was my loss. I wish his survivors well. To anyone who flies small airplanes, I suggest you plan and practice your emergency egress routines in case you have an unfortunate encounter with the ground and need to exit quickly. None of us is as young and agile as we once were.

I don't see anything other than constructive criticism and contemplation in the thread, as it pertains to the subject of the original post, nor has anyone suggested lack of respect and contribution for those who post here. Critical review...yes. Critical evaluation is important here and elsewhere.

As far as not being "focused on airplanes", your post wasn't exactly focused on airplanes.

Randy
 
So, do I calculate a weight and balance every time I fly? Sorta. I may not do the math every time...

Mike thanks for the great post. If one does want to do the math every time, I've found that the "WnB Pro" iPhone app is pretty straight-forward. I've also got an excel sheet I use that I'm happy to email to anyone who wants to send me a PM.
 
I miss the days when this site was focused on airplanes. I have no desire to "belong" to a good old boys club. When I associate with my membership clubs I go out of my way to make visitors feel welcome and comfortable. The same should be true here. I have a good deal of respect for a few occasional posters who haven't "joined" this site. My respect is based on contribution of knowledge, not money.

For all of you who criticize any pilot who has made a fatal mistake? I guess you must never have made any yourselves. Most of us have gotten away with a bad decision or some bad luck. We do what we can to be safe but there is never a guarantee. I didn't know Mr. Meuller and from talking to a few friends who did, it was my loss. I wish his survivors well. To anyone who flies small airplanes, I suggest you plan and practice your emergency egress routines in case you have an unfortunate encounter with the ground and need to exit quickly. None of us is as young and agile as we once were.

Stewart,

I am very careful in positing on another pilot's mistakes, particularly when there are fatalities involved. That said, examination of others mistakes as well as our own help the rest of us stay alive and flying. As has been said many times, we can't afford to make all the mistakes ourselves, so we need to learn from others mistakes.

And, there are mistakes and there are mistakes. In many if not most accidents, it's pretty easy to come to the wrong conclusion. In fact, I know of a couple of cases where the NTSB came to the wrong conclusion in their investigations. Not that the pilots were in fact faultless in these cases, but the point is, because of the flawed investigations, we didn't learn anything from those accidents. That is truly a tragedy. But accidents where the evidence suggests strongly that the airplane was loaded well outside its certificated parameters.....it's not as difficult to understand what caused the accident, though there certainly may be other somewhat mitigating factors we don't know.

In any case, if I stuff myself into the ground because I violated good operating procedures or my skills were lacking, I sincerely hope that some other pilots can learn from my errors. I have made mistakes in airplanes, and I'll probably do so again, though I'm trying pretty hard not to these days.

MTV
 
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