Short Takeoff on floats

[TurboBeaver]

...Here are the findings from a famous case here in Maine, of a contractor flying into glassy water
On Harrington Lk, a slick lawyer drug this out from 1966 till 1972 ,and the following is the courts decision. I think the award would have been one million dollars, here is the printed verdict

tJustia›U.S. Law›Case Law›Maine Case Law›Maine Supreme Judicial Court Decisions›1972› Sargent v. Raymond F. Sargent, Inc.

Sargent v. Raymond F. Sargent, Inc.Annotate this Case




*36 Silsby & Silsby, by Herbert T. Silsby, II, Ellsworth, for plaintiff.


Mahoney, Desmond, Robinson, & Mahoney by David C. Norman, Portland, for defendant.


*37 Before DUFRESNE, C. J., and WEBBER, WEATHERBEE, POMEROY, WERNICK and ARCHIBALD, JJ.


ARCHIBALD, Justice.







The Company owned, and used for business purposes, a Cessna 180, airplane which was flown on floats, and which was usually piloted by Raymond, although occasionally by Adelbert, also a pilot. Whatever hazards are inherent in flying an airplane designed to be flown off and onto water were incidental to Raymond's employment. These hazards would naturally include the surface conditions of the water on which the plane lands, whether rough, calm, choppy, smooth or "glassy." There was no evidence introduced from which a finding could be made that landing an airplane on water, whatever the surface conditions might be, posed any unusual or overhazardous problems to this particular aircraft. Nor was there any evidence from which it could be found that Raymond's capabilities as a pilot were limited by surface conditions, whatever they might be.

Of course we all realize landing the plane in the middle of the lake on glassy water could most certainly have have a poor ending in this case two lives.......... but the court saw it different, as far as I know theynever paid a dime?

 

[Alex Clark]

Wow a very old thread.....

 

[TurboBeaver]

Refering to step turns, they are part of life in river flying and short ponds that are fairly round, years ago if we were heavily loaded, we used to going out of Lake Hood, with light west winds, or no wind,and on hot days, start the takeoff just as you came out of the slow taxi channel , hooking left, come up onto the step headed east, then step turn around in Lake Spenard and come back west with your plane marching nicely and about ready to go, by time you came up the fast
Taxi channel. With same load to just slow taxi to east end of Spenard and just do a straight out departure, would have you half way accross
Lake Hood when you lifted off and you would likely rattle the windows in the post office on the way out by!
Nowadays I dont see alot of that. Same way at Greenville in the canoe race, see alot of pilots , scared to go around the markers on the step,
And backing off from power and coming half way off the step, then reving up again? Not sure what thats all about as the markers are spaced perfectly to do step turns around them.............. good thing Charlie Coe isnt still there as he would go around thru those markers on one float..........
Then swap back to the other float just to get the crowd going! Guess step turns and spins are going the way of the DoDo bird?

 

[Alex Clark]

I also do a lot of BFRs and additional float training with folks who are already SES rated. There are quite a few who have no idea how to perform a proper step turn. I guess you can't expect too much when they go to a 3-4 hour rating mill.

 

[NimpoCub]

I've only done slow step turns, would like to try tight ones. I imagine the trick is to keep the outside tip up (w/elevator) and the outside float high (w/aileron). Can someone explain the "feel" & what to watch/feel for?

 

[Alex Clark]

1. Always use as much lake as possible for the turn. Tight is slow, loose is fast.
2. Ailerons to bank into the turn. This helps resist the tipping towards outboard and also makes more drag on the inside float.
3. Feet on both rudders and be aware that you may have to use some opposite rudder to keep the plane from turning itself too fast and water looping.
4. Proper nose pitch is super important. A plowing turn, is not a step turn.
5. Use the minimum speed required to stay on the step during the turn, then accelerate while straightening the course.
6. If you goof, just recover back to a regular taxi and get set up again.
7. Trying to recover (save) a step turn where porpoising has started is a good way to eat up distance. Take your time and start again.
8. If you see water going sideways under your floats you are going too fast or too tight in your turn.

 

[Olibuilt]

I'm really not an expert, but we can almost see what Mr. Clark says at 2:30 in my video. Hope I've done it right...


Sorry, The video should work now

 

[Alex Clark]

It says.... " This video is private "

 

[Alex Clark]

Yes I can see how you dance with the rudder to keep the plane on course.... EXCELLENT!

The guy who did a couple of my videos said we had to pay for the background music for you-tube. I need to find out how that works...
I was trying to demonstrate a big sweeping step turn in part of this video... But the guy with the camera was hanging onto the side of a dead tree much further down the lake. So I had to hold the plane down o the water for a much loner period of time so I could get closer to him.

The turn is around 1.50 or so...
BTW the landing shown before that is a down-wind landing over trees... that is why I am sliding along. I carried extra speed.

What started out as an instructional video idea turned rather artsy fartsy.

I was at full fuel, (40 gallons=240 pounds) Plus 100 pounds or gear and 230 pounds of Me. So around a 600 pound load for a 160 HP C-172.; When the camera guy was on-board we were hauling 800 pounds.

 

[NimpoCub]

Thanks Alex!

1. Always use as much lake as possible for the turn. Tight is slow, loose is fast.

I was thinking of a circular takeoff, gotta go fast.

2. Ailerons to bank into the turn. This helps resist the tipping towards outboard and also makes more drag on the inside float.
3. Feet on both rudders and be aware that you may have to use some opposite rudder to keep the plane from turning itself too fast and water looping.
4. Proper nose pitch is super important. A plowing turn, is not a step turn.

Yep, I understand these.

5. Use the minimum speed required to stay on the step during the turn, then accelerate while straightening the course.
6. If you goof, just recover back to a regular taxi and get set up again.
7. Trying to recover (save) a step turn where porpoising has started is a good way to eat up distance. Take your time and start again.
8. If you see water going sideways under your floats you are going too fast or too tight in your turn.

The floats will slip sideways without burying???

 

[Alex Clark]

Yes. On some types of floats and in some conditions. .....
When you go too fast in a step turn the plane starts to skid over the top of the water via centrifugal force. If you let it keep skidding outward it will catch a float and you will put a wing into the water. Remember very little of the float is down in the water while on the step.

The same thing happens when an inexperienced float pilot starts a regular step turn around a nice glassy water lake. The glassy water makes the edge of the lake appear much closer than the actual distance. So the pilot starts to panic and tightens the turn radius much more than necessary. So there you are at 30 knots and things go all to crap....

So if your lake is 500 feet wide, use 499 feet of it for your turn radius.

Unused lake distance is like money in your ex-spouse's bank account. It used to be yours and now will be used against you.

Some folks go way too fast while turning and the outboard wing starts to lift the outboard float out of the water. ( Outboard wing is going slightly faster through the air) In that case you basically have a turning take-off. Which is fine if that is what you wanted to do. You just have to remember that some of the turning force is being induced by the drag from the inside float's keel. Also that if you let the bank angle increase too much you loose some vertical lift. So you need to get the other float out of the water and gain some flying speed while in ground effect before trying to climb out.

 

[skywagon8a]

... You just have to remember that some of the turning force is being induced by the drag from the inside float's keel. Also that if you let the bank angle increase too much you loose some vertical lift. So you need to get the other float out of the water and gain some flying speed while in ground effect before trying to climb out.

Additionally, the increased bank angle reduces the side drag of the inboard float by reducing the "V" of the float bottom to a more flat relationship to the water surface. This reduces the keel effect and makes directional control more touchy. Also you now need to pay more attention to the wing tip's clearance from the water. When the outboard float comes out of the water, expect to reduce the amount of rudder pressure into the turn. When doing step turns on one float the rudder control becomes very sensitive to foot movement. Also keep the bows high enough to prevent them from digging in and thus tightening the turn, which could then cause a water loop. One float step turns are done at minimum planning speed for ease of steerage purposes.

Some single hull seaplanes are able to make extremely tight step turns within the length of the fuselage safely. Take extreme caution when attempting tight step turns.

When taking off in a straight line and lifting one float out of the water, apply a little rudder into the raised float to offset the greater drag of the float which is still on the water. This helps to maintain minimum drag of the keel in the water by keeping it straight.

 

[NimpoCub]

OK, understand all that, thanks guys. Seems like if anything goes bad I'd straighten it out & let it settle again. If I keep the outboard float bow out'a the water can anything happen too fast to correct for it? I reckon the wind can have a big effect on my attitude. In relatively calm wind, approx. how big (diameter) will the circle be when I lift off?
I know, start slow & work into it but just wondering.

 

[Alex Clark]

I was a passenger when a Super Cub pilot stuck a wing-tip into the water on a small tight lake because he was showing off. We skipped sideways for a second then tipped out-board. All sorts of bad things occurred after that point. Fortunately the water was not too cold that day. I did whack my head pretty good on his overhead tubing.

On the other hand, I knew a guy in Juneau who could make his Lake Amphip do cork-screw take-offs and climbs.

SKYWAGON8A........ Have you noticed that light-medium loaded C-185s on Aerocet 3500s tend to wander while doing step-turns, more so than the big EDOs??? I like them for straight take-off distance , but to me they seem to dislike turning paths. I do not notice it so much when they are on C-206s.

 

[skywagon8a]

The Lake is the single hulled plane that I was referring to. I felt that it might be blasphemy to mention it on the Cub site.;-)

Alex, I have not flown a set of Aerocets. I suspect that the EDOs may be more stable because of the protruding head rivets creating drag. I had a Lake with a custom flush riveted forward bottom which was more slippery than a normal protruding head riveted bottom.

 

[NimpoCub]

Hmmm, is there really any advantage of a circular takeoff over just a J-turn?? I think I'd want to choose my takeoff direction (lowest horizon) anyway, so why the hell would I want to do a circle turn? (honest question)

 

[wronghand]

Haha depends on how small the lake is Nimpo, maybe several circles.

 

[cubdriver2]

OK, understand all that, thanks guys. Seems like if anything goes bad I'd straighten it out & let it settle .[f/QUOTE]

That option is not available once you commit on a smaller body of water.

Glenn

 

[skywagon8a]

Hmmm, is there really any advantage of a circular takeoff over just a J-turn?? I think I'd want to choose my takeoff direction (lowest horizon) anyway, so why the hell would I want to do a circle turn? (honest question)

Nimpo,
A lake, with it's single hull, has the ability to make extremely tight step turns. It is possible for them to take off in a smaller pond than they can land safely in using this technique. They can take off in circles which are so tight that the main hull comes out of the water before the inboard wing tip float. Then that angle of bank is maintained while climbing above the obstacles. I have seen the main hull be several feet in the air with the tip float still on the water and the wing tip almost touching. This is best done in smooth air.

It is possible to do this with a Super Cub though it would be a much more touchy maneuver since the Cub does not have a wing tip float to help keep the wing tip out of the water. In the Lake the inboard tip float is pushed hard against the water making the tight turn very stable. Due to it's shape the Lake tip float will plane on the surface and under these conditions is very solid. IF the Lake pilot lets the outboard tip float hit the water in these circumstances it is likely that some damage will be done. Like ripping the float off followed by a water loop to the outside of the turn. Then it is possible for some major damage to occur.

It is also possible to make glassy smooth water turn into a white capped maelstrom by making continuous tight high speed step turn circles. The waves will be too high to safely land in.

A Lake is a wonderful tool for learning water flying and it is easy to transition to a float plane from a Lake. Learning in a float plane and then transitioning to a Lake is difficult since the techniques are very different and in some cases opposite to those used on floats. The preformed habits of twin floats are difficult to change to those which will make the Lake perform safely. Boats and floats are both the same and different.

 

[Alex Clark]

Unless you talk to your insurance agent first about owning a LAKE.


Generally I avoid circular take-offs. A couple years ago I was stuck in a small lake near Soldotna after picking up a passenger. ( SPORT LAKE)
I was in a max loaded PA-11-90 and it was totally glassy water with dead air.
Because of the houses around the lake, I had to going around the lake several times until I roughed up the water enough to help us accelerate off the little wave tops.

 

[skywagon8a]

Alex, If we all let the insurance companies control our flying, we would not be flying at all. I refuse to let an insurance company tell me what, where or how I fly. I once upon a time had a policy which would cover my plane anywhere in North America except Alaska! Can you imagine being covered ANYWHERE in Canada and then crossing the border into Alaska and having the coverage stop? Canada is in many places far more remote than Alaska.