Pa-11 empty weight

[Sideslip]

I bought my first airplane earlier this year which is a 1947 pa-11. I have been enjoying it so much I came across a different one that has been recently recovered, where the one I currently own has not been recovered since 1988. The one that coughs my eye has a new univair fuselage with two 18gal tanks. Other than the extra tank and Cleveland brakes the planes are basically the same. With my pa-11 my empty wt is 786 and the one I'm looking at comes in at 854lb. Does that sound right for stock pa-11 with two tanks and clevlands? I'm 200 and can legally carry someone else my size, but that won't be the case on this other one I'm looking at do I give up on the other pa-11 or give up trying to stay legal?

 

[mvivion]

First, you say that your PA-11 weighs 786. Is that an actual weight, or is that a calculated weight, based on a weighing that happened in 88? A lot of these old airplane's "empty weight" are somewhat fictional. Airplanes typically gain weight over time.

Second, the 854 on the newly rebuilt airplane may not be that far off. My 11 has Cleveland wheels/brakes, a 3200 tailwheel, oI'vne wing tank, and a fairly recent cover. It weighs 836 empty. The old weight and balance when I bought it was 802, which, if you do the math, probably wasn't that far off. But, my current weight is from certified electronic scales.

It seems like the vast majority of the 11's on the market I'dve seen are pretty heavy. Two wing tanks, a lot of them with Lycoming engines, fat interiors, etc, etc.

I don't know if the more recent covering systems are heavier than the older ones, but sometimes it's difficult to figure out where the weight came from.

Good luck.

MTV

 

[Sideslip]

The previous owner weighed it so, I don't know how accurate the 786lbs is. I am in the process of trying to get mine weighed to confirm. I have read somewhere that the univair fuselages can be 10-20lbs heavier than the original frames as well. What can an extra fuel tank weigh maybe 5-10lbs. Thanks for your help

 

[mvivion]

The previous owner weighed it so, I don't know how accurate the 786lbs is. I am in the process of trying to get mine weighed to confirm. I have read somewhere that the univair fuselages can be 10-20lbs heavier than the original frames as well. What can an extra fuel tank weigh maybe 5-10lbs. Thanks for your help

I have a 12 gallon wing tank for the right wing of mine. Total weight of the tank and plumbing is 12 pounds. I'd imagine an 18 gallon tank, plus additional header tank, etc is probably more like 15 or 16 pounds.

MTV

 

[robertc]

I have a 12 gallon wing tank for the right wing of mine. Total weight of the tank and plumbing is 12 pounds. I'd imagine an 18 gallon tank, plus additional header tank, etc is probably more like 15 or 16 pounds.

MTV

Mike, check your PM's. Thanks-Bob

 

[skipster]

Just weighed a stock Piper 18 gal tank. 9.5lbs on good electronic scales.

 

[jasimmons]

My previous -11, a '47 with a stroked C-85, 26" ABW, 3200, extended baggage, metal prop, heavy duty gear, standard left wing fuel tank, weighed 856 on scales.

Andrew

 

[Sideslip]

So that -11 I'm looking at that comes in at 854 is probably on par as far as weight goes. I have come across a few threads where people wonder if they can add an extra tank. Do you know if you can successfully take a tank out of a covered wing? Jasimmons sounds like you had a great setup. Thanks you everyone for your help

 

[bob turner]

Somehow all these airplanes gain 100 lbs the first time they encounter non-factory scales. They fly the same before and after that load-killing re-weigh. Once a J-3 or PA-11 passes the 800lb mark, it essentially becomes a one place airplane.

The Super Cub is the same - they left the factory at 1077# or so, and now weigh in at above 1200. My J-3, at 740 computed pounds, can carry more payload than can the latest 160 HP Super Cub to arrive on the field.

Nobody cares what the paperwork looks like until something happens. Then you need to be able to prove, on paper, that you were operating within the airworthiness limitations. It is the " on paper" part that you need to manage well.

Opinion.

 

[gbflyer]

Mine had a bunch of -18 stuff including flaps and it was north of 900#. Resist the temptation to junk them up especially if you operate at higher DA's.

 

[n40ff]

If you have a PA11 whose paperwork says it weighs 786#,

DO NOT WEIGH IT!

It will as Bob T. suggests ONLY GAIN WEIGHT. It will still fly the same but with LESS usefull load........

 

[Sideslip]

Thanks everybody for your input, this website is truly great with all the expertise a guy can get. So bottom line is, I won't let the empty weight scare me off as long as the airplane is as advertised thanks for your help.

Side slip

 

[bob turner]

You might have missed my point. If your aircraft weighs 850 lbs empty you have 370 lbs of useful load. That is two 180 lb guys and 1 1/2 gallons of fuel. If you then go flying with, say, 12 gallons of fuel, you are overweight, and unairworthy. The feds are not happy with that, but they will not put you in jail or take your first-born. But your insurer can say " nope - policy says must be airworthy".

So if you plan to carry insurance, you need a believable way to load your aircraft. If you have no way to get the weight back down to a useful number, and plan on carrying two adults, then skip the expense of insurance. The airplane will fly fine. Just remember - when doing so you are intentionally in violation of the FARs.

The new Super Cub here has numerous 337s filed in OKC that state: "Aircraft will be weighed after modifications are complete". In order to get that aircraft back to a reasonable empty weight, each and every one of those mods would have to come off. One of them involves extra tubing in the fuselage. And we, unlike Piper, cannot lie about what scales say.

 

[Sideslip]

I appreciate your thoughts Bob. Hypothetically if I were to find a scale and get mine weighed "unoficially", and find it is heavier than previously recorded. Would that be any different than purchasing the one I'm interested in???

 

[mvivion]

I appreciate your thoughts Bob. Hypothetically if I were to find a scale and get mine weighed "unoficially", and find it is heavier than previously recorded. Would that be any different than purchasing the one I'm interested in???

Yes. Assuming that the weight in your light airplane was calculated and signed off by an A & P mechanic, and there are no obvious math errors, it's a perfectly legal empty weight. Subtract that from 1220 and that is your legal useful load.

If you were to have it re-weighed and it came out to weigh, say, 810 pounds, that would now be your legal empty weight....there's no going back. If a mechanic weighed it and you didn't like the new weight, the mechanic would technically be in violation by letting it go out the door at the old weight....I think.

if you have a good empty weight, and it's "official" leave it alone...don't weigh it.

MTV

 

[n40ff]

My only fear is that some IA at some point will/might know enough about a cub that he would know that because of whatever equipment, that the aircraft "MUST" be heavier than paper says and insist (at some point) that it be reweighed. I don't know the "what/if" a point in a annual inspection that he might become legally bound to weight the aircraft?

Best to know about such things before an IA is committed to the inspection.......?

Jack

 

[skywagon8a]

Let's assume that a conscientious young IA, while reviewing the logs, finds that for some reason the weight numbers do not add up. He will want to weigh the plane in order to resolve the situation. At that time it is very likely and not uncommon to find that the plane weights more than the records show.

I'll give an example. I bought a new 185 which I picked up in Wichita. When I got it home I installed some radios which were all weighed before installation. The new empty weight was calculated. Next the plane went to EDO for an amphibious float installation. It was necessary to get an official weight in order to do some official flight testing. Guess what, the empty weight was about 50 pounds more than the calculations.

All of the above comments are valid. I've seen a lot of questionable W&B numbers over time. Be cautious when making the decision to get a new "official" weight. In this example of a useful "useful load", you could become screwed.

 

[Sideslip]

So am I better off keeping the one I got that weighs 786 knowing it will need to be recovered in the next 5-10 years or buying one that's already redone that comes in heavy. I think I would have to pay 30-40k to refurbish mine, to be as nice as the one I'm looking at for 44k Basically a new plane.

 

[skywagon8a]

Not necessarily. As long as you are now aware of the possibilities going in. Go get an "unofficial" weight on your old plane so that you know. It ought to be weighed when you get it recovered (not required). If you know now that the "old" -11 has the possibility of coming in heavy then you might as well go for the "new" one.

 

[Sideslip]

I want to thank everyone for your input. I've decided to slow down a little bit and appreciate the one I have. For anyone looking for a pa-11 I think this would be a great deal for someone. It has lots of new parts including a fuselage from univair, leading edges, elevators, and jack screw. It was previously owned by a gentleman George Erickson who I never heard of and am in the process of purchasing his book. Comes with edo 1320s and float trailer straight skis, and an extra performance prop. 44,500. Thanks again

 

[mvivion]

Side slip,

That would indeed be a GREAT deal! If it is as you've represented, if I were you, I'd jump on that quick. You couldn't possibly have yours recovered/repaired for that cost. And, as Pete noted, if you have it recovered, it makes a lot of sense to weigh it.

Geoge's plane will doubtless be in great condition, and it has quite a history to boot.

MTV

 

[jasimmons]

I want to thank everyone for your input. I've decided to slow down a little bit and appreciate the one I have. For anyone looking for a pa-11 I think this would be a great deal for someone. It has lots of new parts including a fuselage from univair, leading edges, elevators, and jack screw. It was previously owned by a gentleman George Erickson who I never heard of and am in the process of purchasing his book. Comes with edo 1320s and float trailer straight skis, and an extra performance prop. 44,500. Thanks again

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