N Numbers: Size matters...

[sj]

My brother in-law's wife's brother, has one of those new fangled rebuilt supercubs that has large vinyl n-numbers. It would be a snap to peel them off with a heat gun and put in some kindler, gentler, smaller numbers. The plane was a recertified model in Y2K.

The questions are:

1. If the N numbers were to shrink in the sun to a 3" size, what is the penalty if it goes unnoticed and somebody notices it? Do they take away your plane? Kill your AI?

2. I am especially interested in anyone who has direct experience with these matters so I can aid this computer illiterate person.

Thanks!

sj

 

[Gordon Misch]

Lessee, is that your wife's brother's wife's brother; or your sister's husband's wife's brother?????????? I KNOW the second one's not computer illeterate, but Hmmmm? - - -

 

[Erik]

Steve - your brother-in-law's wife's brother wouldn't happen to be you would it?

Did they change the regs? My 1981 SC has the 3" numbers, from the factory I believe. Maybe I'm wrong on that though.

 

[ground loop]

The guys from the big props video might be the ones to speak to. They have some really small numbers, but they seem to compensate for them.

 

[diggler]

delete

 

[pzinck]

I have hearsd if you fly into canada you need 12 inch numbers. I have flown into canada with the small numbers ,so i dont know if they just did'nt catch it or it is a myth. I just didnt ask. Isnt there other restricted airspace in the u.s. if you have the small numbers? I will have to consider this soon when repainting the 185.It was built in late 80 and has original paint. On the brochure it has diagrams of both style letters,so they had available big and small in 1980.

 

[sj]

Dig,

I knew the reg, I just wondered what the consequences were if one were to switch the numbers. Would it go unnoticed?

sj

 

[Cajun Joe]

The consequences if you try to reenter the US through customs at
Ft Pierce Florida with less than 12" numbers is either a $5000 fine with a
suspension of your license OR confiscation of your plane. Same goes
for reentry without a Pilot's certificate and current medical ON YOUR
PERSON. Or reentry without a personal phone call to the customs
facility of reentry. And they get especially upset if you have a orange
with you. (In the old days they were more concerned about drugs ----
but I think they have finally figured out that drug runners don't have
to go through customs in a private plane. So now they have all these
highly skilled customs police that have to do someth........

errr, I'm sorry, what was the question?

 

[Steve's Aircraft (Steve)]

For those with small numbers, large numbers have to "temporarily" be affixed if going into, through a ADIZ. There still is no ADIZ between us and Canada. However, do not fly into our Capitol, or cross the southern borders, or fly out to Catalina Island without "temp" numbers.

Steve

 

[NDRII]

As a user of the Washington ADIZ and a 3 inch N number Super Cub owner, be assured the 12inch ADIZ requirement is specifically not applicable for the Washington ADIZ. Ask the briefer at the AFSS. I have had face to face conversations with the very people who protect the airspace on the subject of my personal aircraft.

 

[NDRII]

For those who need/ want an FAA reference: http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/notams_tfr/media/tfrweb.pdf See page 7.

 

[S2D]

 

[Yard Dart]

I thought i saw a cc with small numbers.

 

[sj]

I thought i saw a cc with small numbers.

Probably a rebuild, not a re-cert.

S2D: You are probably right.

sj

 

[superchamp]

I can say for sure that re-entering MN from Canada through Crane Lake (CDD)- they could care less about the size of the numbers. But its true about the oranges (or lemons in my case). They can't make drug runners feel much worse than us lemon runners. I love fresh squeezed lemon on my Canadian walleye- but leave the lemons there when you come home. I also couldn't find my medical certificate when asked at US Customs at CDD. Fortunately the agent was kind and let me fax it to him when I found it. Having a five year old with you probably helps.

 

[LANDSHORT]

N number size on cubs gets "0" notice from anyone in Oregon that matters.

I don't want to incriminate myself but have flown two different certified cubs with 2 inch numbers into controlled airfields, many times, with "0" questions from the authorities. Also no letters in the mail from the folks I fly over that can't read em!!

 

[Ursa Major]

Does all this mean that those of us with cubs older than 30 can go back to 2" or 3" numbers regardless of how and when we repainted? Is the date on the A/W certificate or the build date the one which governs?

I'm guessing that there is some way one can judge aircraft age by N number. For example, most of the Piper aircraft I've seen with the letter A at the end were built in 1951 or 52. Anybody know for sure? If that's true, then you probably wouldn't want to put small numbers on a non qualifying airplane.

 

[T.J.]

delete

 

[Christina Young]

This is good news. Looks like I will be flying my cub through Canada to AK next summer. I was worried about the 12" rule.... where would I put the temporary numbers? How do other ex-warbirds get to AK?

So I really don't have to worry about them?

 

[Longwinglover]

While I agree with the FAA angle on this issue, I think the 12 inch registration is a US Customs/Border Protection rule. Somebody better call AOPA on this issue.

John Scott

 

[Jerry Gaston]

I carry a squeeze bottle of white shoe polish for thoses time I cross the boarder. Simply paint on and at the next stop I wash it off.

 

[jnorris]

The 2 " numbers must be horizontal, the 3 " numbers can be vertical.

Hi TJ,

Where did you get the idea that the 2 inch numbers can't be vertical? My understanding of the regulations is that they can be either horizontal or vertical when placed on the vertical tail surface. I just looked at the regs again before typing this reply and I can't find a specific reference that precludes having vertical 2 inch numbers on an antique.

Confused (as usual),

Joe

 

[T.J.]

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[Christina Young]

Christina:
Part 45.22, (c), (1) specifically says to enter an ADIZ zone you need temporary 12 inch numbers. The border between Ak. and Canada is an ADIZ zone. They may not enforce it, but its in the book.
Jerrys shoe polish trick works or any contrasting color tape. Black electricians tape works good.

Mucho thanks, T.J.

Can I have those 12" numbers displayed on the side of the Firman pod? Is that considered part of the fuselage?

 

[jnorris]

Part 45.25, (b), (1)......
"......on aircraft on which marks at least 3 inches high may be displayed in accordance with 45.29, (b). (1), the marks may be displayed vertically on the vertical tail surfaces."
I always read that to mean the vertical numbers had to be at least 3 inches?

HI TJ,

The two inch numbers are displayed in accordance with 14 CFR 45.22(b), which specifically states (in pertinent part):

"A small U.S.-registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago....may be operated without displaying marks in accordance with §§45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33...."

This specifically states that the requirements of 45.29 (which is within the range of 45.23 through 45.33) would not apply to the antique airplane. And since 45.22 contains no specific prohibition against vertical numbers on the tail, I am under the understanding that this is acceptable. And since there are a number of antiques displaying 2 inch numbers in this fashion, it would appear that this is correct.

Hope this helps!

Joe

 

[Alex Clark]

I have flown in and out of Canada several times. They are a pretty tolerant bunch of folks. Usually I call ahead and they never even come out to look at the plane. I have NEVER had one problem in western Canada. I can't say that for a few places in the U.S.

 

[T.J.]

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[Christina Young]

Christina:
Part 45.22, (c), (1) specifically says to enter an ADIZ zone you need temporary 12 inch numbers. The border between Ak. and Canada is an ADIZ zone. They may not enforce it, but its in the book.
Jerrys shoe polish trick works or any contrasting color tape. Black electricians tape works good.

Hi again, T.J.!

I just got off the phone with AOPA, and they told me there is no ADIZ between the United States & Canada.... just with Mexico -- and that therefore I do not need the 12" N-numbers on my warbird Super Cub!

This is great news!

 

[jnorris]

Now, I gotta go put new vertical 2" numbers on my beater Cub!

Go for it man!!!!

Joe

 

[AkPA/18]

Hi Christina

If my memory is correct on this----there is a ADIZ on the border if you go the coastal route. You are going to have a hell of a lot of fun with the military paint scheme. When I flew outside with the Stars and Bars---seems there was always a friendly face when I landed with offers of a place to stay---car--deicer-- BS etc. Not so with the stock scheme. That was how I got to meet Byron Root in the 80's. I landed outside Portland OR and Ksecub's dad(heck of a nice guy) had to come check out the military cub that flew over. Figured I needed to meet Byron and check out his cub. Pretty cool time.

Mark