2022 Insurance Discussion
- Thread starter stewartb
- Start date
bob turner
Registered User
Just swap "is" and "for"
It seems to ebb and flow. I am 81, and while my premium is maybe 10% higher due to age I am learning that I am still able to get coverage at affordable prices - currently two Cubs and a Decathlon. I am insured to instruct in one of the Cubs.
My SAFE insurance is roughly the same as the NAFI insurance I carried for years, and I don't think the cost has changed in a decade, at least for liability. (the SAFE insurance has a "tail" - ask medical professionals how important that is).
We should have a thread on mechanic's coverage!
It seems to ebb and flow. I am 81, and while my premium is maybe 10% higher due to age I am learning that I am still able to get coverage at affordable prices - currently two Cubs and a Decathlon. I am insured to instruct in one of the Cubs.
My SAFE insurance is roughly the same as the NAFI insurance I carried for years, and I don't think the cost has changed in a decade, at least for liability. (the SAFE insurance has a "tail" - ask medical professionals how important that is).
We should have a thread on mechanic's coverage!
BenPeterson77
Registered User
Here's a few appraiser's contact info. Otherwise bluebook or controller.
Wes Romaine, ASA, ISTAT Certified Appraiser
Vice President | ACI Aviation Consulting | Airliner Price Guide
568 Waterloo Road, Suite 102, Warrenton, VA 20186
Office: (540) 428-4388 | Direct: (540) 905-8693 | Cell: (540) 532-5491
Wes Romaine, ASA, ISTAT Certified Appraiser
Vice President | ACI Aviation Consulting | Airliner Price Guide
568 Waterloo Road, Suite 102, Warrenton, VA 20186
Office: (540) 428-4388 | Direct: (540) 905-8693 | Cell: (540) 532-5491
BenPeterson77
Registered User
Here's a few appraiser's contact info. Otherwise bluebook or controller.
Wes Romaine, ASA, ISTAT Certified Appraiser
Vice President | ACI Aviation Consulting | Airliner Price Guide
568 Waterloo Road, Suite 102, Warrenton, VA 20186
Office: (540) 428-4388 | Direct: (540) 905-8693 | Cell: (540) 532-5491
BenPeterson77
Registered User
| David Fisher Managing Director Senior Accredited Aviation Appraiser (ASA) WESTERN AVIATION Aircraft/Helicopter - Sales/Leases - All Aviation Appraisals - Worldwide Charter Service |
| m: +1(281) 794-2361 p: 1 (800) AVIATION | +1 (281) 391-2510 |
| 15000 Voss Road, Suite 218 Sugar Land, Texas 77498 |
Cardiff Kook
PATRON
Sisters, OR
Are you using a broker?
I have a policy with AVEMCO coming up for renewal. Does it make sense to quote it out?
Any recommended one stop shops out there?
I have a policy with AVEMCO coming up for renewal. Does it make sense to quote it out?
Any recommended one stop shops out there?
BenPeterson77
Registered User
Hi Cardiff,
If you're with ACEMCO you're probably already getting a competitive quote. Check your overall rate by taking the total premium (ie $2,500) and dividing the hull value (ie. $250,000) which would equal a rate of 1%. Anything less than 2% is probably fine.
If you're with ACEMCO you're probably already getting a competitive quote. Check your overall rate by taking the total premium (ie $2,500) and dividing the hull value (ie. $250,000) which would equal a rate of 1%. Anything less than 2% is probably fine.
When I turned 75 they wouldn't give me my million smooth anymore. So now only 100K for a passenger which won't pay much of anything really. So I don't give rides anymore and I've given hundreds. Also they will only give me 127K on my cub and it was just rebuilt with ALL the goodies including new wings and a new fuse. Are you kidding? I will probably drop the hull (because of the 60% or so rule of totaling it) and stick with my not take passengers. But you gotta have liability cause if you think you have a loss in the plane, try "injury" attorneys and attaching judgements to your real estate maybe sucking money out of checking accts. etc. No thanks.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
deleted (referenced exclusion was amended by an endorsement)
Last edited:
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
Just got my renewal quote from BWI--
C180, 100K hull, 1M liability, hangared in western WA,
over 3300 hours pilot total time, 3000+ tailwheel, 700+ in make/model.
$1843, up about 9% from last year.
Got some other quotes & this one (through their AIG 180/185 program) was the lowest.
FWIW got a quote from Avemco this time around.....$2600.
C180, 100K hull, 1M liability, hangared in western WA,
over 3300 hours pilot total time, 3000+ tailwheel, 700+ in make/model.
$1843, up about 9% from last year.
Got some other quotes & this one (through their AIG 180/185 program) was the lowest.
FWIW got a quote from Avemco this time around.....$2600.
Last edited:
cub yellow
FRIEND
North Central Wa.
New quote from Travers & Associates.
$ 2317. Through Global Aerospace. Experimental Supercub replica. $130k hull, 0 deductible, 1 million liability,
$5k each person medical.
Pilot... 3100 total time. 2700 tailwheel. 500 in supercubs.
Commercial
Instrument
Multi
SES.
No previous incidents or accidents.
Avemco quoted $4600.00 with a $2500. Deductible.
Sent from my VS988 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
$ 2317. Through Global Aerospace. Experimental Supercub replica. $130k hull, 0 deductible, 1 million liability,
$5k each person medical.
Pilot... 3100 total time. 2700 tailwheel. 500 in supercubs.
Commercial
Instrument
Multi
SES.
No previous incidents or accidents.
Avemco quoted $4600.00 with a $2500. Deductible.
Sent from my VS988 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Cardiff Kook
PATRON
Sisters, OR
I'm 150 hours TT and I'm paying $1780/year w/ $95k hull on my supercub. Suprised it's so low given my experience level when seeing some of the numbers above. Avemco
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
TxAgfisher
MEMBER
East Texas
Why are the rates so all over the place if the same handful of carriers cover the whole market? My Cub is looking like it is going up $900/yr.
BenPeterson77
Registered User
[FONT="]
There's an aviation saying that goes - There are OLD pilots, and there are BOLD pilots, but there are no OLD BOLD pilots.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]When it comes to aviation insurance, underwriters utilize large data sets to determine their risk exposure for a given policyholder. Pilots 70 years and older often face steep rate hikes, while others may get dropped from their policy altogether. Many healthy and experienced pilots consider these changes unjust and even discriminatory. However, underwriters simply don’t have the resources to evaluate each pilot’s mental and physical health and often make decisions based on the generalized data. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="] Example of Insurance Premiums for Pilot Age 69-80[/FONT]
[FONT="]The table below demonstrates how aircraft owner's insurance premiums and policy restrictions evolve over the course of a senior pilot’s flying career. In this example, the gentlemen was flying a 1984 Commander 1000 twin turbo prop. He sold the aircraft in 2022. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]What Happens as Pilots Cross Age 65[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]While a pilot’s age will become a flight risk at some point, there is no agreed-upon “age limit” across the industry. Each of the sixteen major general aviation insurance companies has unique underwriting requirements. The most conservative of these companies refuse to insure pilots after age 65, while others evaluate on a case-by-case basis. What’s more, those requirements fluctuate based on changing market conditions. When the market is “soft,” age limits are likely to be more lenient. However, when the market is “hard,” insurance companies become more risk-averse, and age becomes a factor sooner rather than later. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Depending on the underwriter, a pilot’s age could be a factor as early as 60. It will undoubtedly become a factor by age 70. In 2019,[ AV Web published an article](https://www.avweb.com/ownership/insurance-for-seniors-70-is-the-new-65/) discussing the opinions of underwriters from most of the major GA insurance companies. The report noted that most underwriters factored in a pilot’s age starting at 70. Two representatives began taking a closer look at age 65 for owners of more complex aircraft. Yet, every underwriter also claimed to have clients flying in their 80s. While two had clients flying in their 90s.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Most pilots can expect their age to begin affecting premiums between 65 and 75, with additional requirements implemented by 80 at the latest. The outcome depends on the data referenced, the pilot’s claim history, training, and experience. The type of plane and flying they do will also play a role in the decision. Even then, the insurance company’s decision can vary considerably. Yet, pilots can take steps to prolong their coverage and avoid particular mistakes as they approach their 70s to improve their circumstances.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Tips For Keeping Your Aircraft Insurance[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Insurance companies won’t offer the same limit of liability or insure solo flights forever. However, there are some intelligent ways to postpone this eventuality and lower your costs along the way. Here are some tips to help pilots keep their aircraft insurance[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]1. Fly Often and Train Frequently[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="][According to APOA president](https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...-negative-treatment-from-insurance-companies) Mark Baker, the best way to avoid claims and remain insured is to fly often, train regularly, complete your medical requirements, and document everything. When an underwriter sees a strong 12-month flight history and annual training appropriate to each aircraft you fly, it signals your vitality, proficiency, and commitment to safety.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]An excellent starting point is to complete annual training and submitting the Training Completion Certificate to the insurance company. Participating in the [FAA’s WINGS Pilot Proficiency Program](https://www.faasafety.gov/wings/pub/learn_more.aspx) is also highly recommended. Purchase a membership to EAA or AOPA and attending their annual conferences will also go a long way. These programs and associations will place many owner pilots above more casual pilots in an underwriter’s eyes and make them much more comfortable when writing your policy. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]2. Complete Adequate Medical Examinations[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Pilots in their 65s to 75s are often required to maintain annual medical and EKG completed by a certified Aviation Medical Examiner if they wish to extend their aviation career. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Finally, it’s wise to include a photo of yourself with your aircraft with your policy. This photo will put a face to your name for underwriters and allow them to see that your body is healthy. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Risk Factors That Lead To Being Cut Off[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Just as there are ways to prolong your insurance coverage and reduce premiums, there are also factors that indicate you may be a risk insurance companies are unwilling to take. Understanding these risks and doing your best to avoid them as you approach your senior years is essential.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Small Claims[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Minor mistakes, such as runway incursions, hangar rash, prop strike or pilot error related claims are looked at unfavorably when trying to get quotes from multiple insurance companies. Most competing underwriters will wait to provide a quote in the future until the loss ratio has returned to 100% of the premium. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]If you have a history of small claims, you can expect this to affect your ability to retain insurance premiums at competitive rates. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Eventually, The Time Will Come[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]The issue of a pilot’s age has been a sensitive discussion amongst aviators since we started flying. However, it has become a more prevalent topic of conversation since the hard market began in 2018. Countless studies have been completed to determine when a pilot’s age affects risk performance. Yet, conclusions vary, and no agreement has been reached. The fact of the matter is human beings are unique. Some pilots reach their limit in their 60s while others maintain their competence into their 90s. However, one consensus remains: A pilot’s ability to safely fly will eventually diminish.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]As an aging pilot, we encourage you to fly for as long as possible. Take advantage of the tips and risks discussed above to extend your flying career and use your judgment to determine when it’s time to take additional precautions. At the end of the day, your goal is to enjoy flying and return home safely. This article will help you accomplish those goals.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Share this article: https://sunsetais.com/aircraft-insurance-for-70-year-old-pilots-tips-risks-pricing/[/FONT]
There's an aviation saying that goes - There are OLD pilots, and there are BOLD pilots, but there are no OLD BOLD pilots.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]When it comes to aviation insurance, underwriters utilize large data sets to determine their risk exposure for a given policyholder. Pilots 70 years and older often face steep rate hikes, while others may get dropped from their policy altogether. Many healthy and experienced pilots consider these changes unjust and even discriminatory. However, underwriters simply don’t have the resources to evaluate each pilot’s mental and physical health and often make decisions based on the generalized data. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="] Example of Insurance Premiums for Pilot Age 69-80[/FONT]
[FONT="]The table below demonstrates how aircraft owner's insurance premiums and policy restrictions evolve over the course of a senior pilot’s flying career. In this example, the gentlemen was flying a 1984 Commander 1000 twin turbo prop. He sold the aircraft in 2022. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]What Happens as Pilots Cross Age 65[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]While a pilot’s age will become a flight risk at some point, there is no agreed-upon “age limit” across the industry. Each of the sixteen major general aviation insurance companies has unique underwriting requirements. The most conservative of these companies refuse to insure pilots after age 65, while others evaluate on a case-by-case basis. What’s more, those requirements fluctuate based on changing market conditions. When the market is “soft,” age limits are likely to be more lenient. However, when the market is “hard,” insurance companies become more risk-averse, and age becomes a factor sooner rather than later. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Depending on the underwriter, a pilot’s age could be a factor as early as 60. It will undoubtedly become a factor by age 70. In 2019,[ AV Web published an article](https://www.avweb.com/ownership/insurance-for-seniors-70-is-the-new-65/) discussing the opinions of underwriters from most of the major GA insurance companies. The report noted that most underwriters factored in a pilot’s age starting at 70. Two representatives began taking a closer look at age 65 for owners of more complex aircraft. Yet, every underwriter also claimed to have clients flying in their 80s. While two had clients flying in their 90s.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Most pilots can expect their age to begin affecting premiums between 65 and 75, with additional requirements implemented by 80 at the latest. The outcome depends on the data referenced, the pilot’s claim history, training, and experience. The type of plane and flying they do will also play a role in the decision. Even then, the insurance company’s decision can vary considerably. Yet, pilots can take steps to prolong their coverage and avoid particular mistakes as they approach their 70s to improve their circumstances.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Tips For Keeping Your Aircraft Insurance[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Insurance companies won’t offer the same limit of liability or insure solo flights forever. However, there are some intelligent ways to postpone this eventuality and lower your costs along the way. Here are some tips to help pilots keep their aircraft insurance[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]1. Fly Often and Train Frequently[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="][According to APOA president](https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...-negative-treatment-from-insurance-companies) Mark Baker, the best way to avoid claims and remain insured is to fly often, train regularly, complete your medical requirements, and document everything. When an underwriter sees a strong 12-month flight history and annual training appropriate to each aircraft you fly, it signals your vitality, proficiency, and commitment to safety.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]An excellent starting point is to complete annual training and submitting the Training Completion Certificate to the insurance company. Participating in the [FAA’s WINGS Pilot Proficiency Program](https://www.faasafety.gov/wings/pub/learn_more.aspx) is also highly recommended. Purchase a membership to EAA or AOPA and attending their annual conferences will also go a long way. These programs and associations will place many owner pilots above more casual pilots in an underwriter’s eyes and make them much more comfortable when writing your policy. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]2. Complete Adequate Medical Examinations[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Pilots in their 65s to 75s are often required to maintain annual medical and EKG completed by a certified Aviation Medical Examiner if they wish to extend their aviation career. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Finally, it’s wise to include a photo of yourself with your aircraft with your policy. This photo will put a face to your name for underwriters and allow them to see that your body is healthy. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Risk Factors That Lead To Being Cut Off[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Just as there are ways to prolong your insurance coverage and reduce premiums, there are also factors that indicate you may be a risk insurance companies are unwilling to take. Understanding these risks and doing your best to avoid them as you approach your senior years is essential.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Small Claims[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Minor mistakes, such as runway incursions, hangar rash, prop strike or pilot error related claims are looked at unfavorably when trying to get quotes from multiple insurance companies. Most competing underwriters will wait to provide a quote in the future until the loss ratio has returned to 100% of the premium. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]If you have a history of small claims, you can expect this to affect your ability to retain insurance premiums at competitive rates. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Eventually, The Time Will Come[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]The issue of a pilot’s age has been a sensitive discussion amongst aviators since we started flying. However, it has become a more prevalent topic of conversation since the hard market began in 2018. Countless studies have been completed to determine when a pilot’s age affects risk performance. Yet, conclusions vary, and no agreement has been reached. The fact of the matter is human beings are unique. Some pilots reach their limit in their 60s while others maintain their competence into their 90s. However, one consensus remains: A pilot’s ability to safely fly will eventually diminish.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]As an aging pilot, we encourage you to fly for as long as possible. Take advantage of the tips and risks discussed above to extend your flying career and use your judgment to determine when it’s time to take additional precautions. At the end of the day, your goal is to enjoy flying and return home safely. This article will help you accomplish those goals.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Share this article: https://sunsetais.com/aircraft-insurance-for-70-year-old-pilots-tips-risks-pricing/[/FONT]
My liability from AVEMCO is $350 on wheels/wheel skis and $712 on amphib floats. Soon to be 80 but thousands of hours and Com, Instr, ME land and sea. AVEMCO says the see no problem insuring me but premiers group at 81 and again at 86. That is for by Tcraft on Baumann amphibs. A new guy just showed up at my airport with an Icon. It had been damaged twice by the previous owner but fixed. Says he bought it right. Low time guy who just got his SES fating in it. I asked about insurance and the only quote he got for liability only was $11,500. He said he finally got it through Lloyds for $1700. Don’t know how he did that.
Jim
Jim
I have to assume that part of the equation is Alaska vs. elsewhere. I have significantly more time than you and pay almost double what you're paying for $100k hull on my cub - also through Avemco. But the rate of bent airplanes is significantly higher in the Alaskan backcountry (or so I would assume), and that is going to affect my rates.
Cardiff Kook
PATRON
Sisters, OR
Also 135 hp for what its worth. Wonder if that affects and how much?
kase
SPONSOR
Billings MT
That’s about what I was paying a few years ago when my 16 year old was flying the Super Cub.
