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Bearhawk Model 5

skywagon8a said:
You are missing ... who actually does the building? You can build it yourself, but you are not supposed to pay someone else to do it for you. That defeats the intent of the EAB program.
Click to expand...

But if I buy an EAB that someone else built (scenario one) I did no building and I did, in effect, pay for someone else to build it. Your distinction would prevent the sale of EAB aircraft.

Sure, I cannot claim to be the builder if I did not perform 51% of the tasks but that does not prevent me from being the owner.
 
Your scenario #1
frequent_flyer said:
What specific activity would they want to crack down on? Let's say I buy and build a kit and I enjoy doing it. I fly off the phase 1 hours and sell it. I use the money to buy another kit and there is some left over. How many times can I do this before I should be stopped by FAA?
Click to expand...

frequent_flyer said:
But if I buy an EAB that someone else built (scenario one) I did no building and I did, in effect, pay for someone else to build it. Your distinction would prevent the sale of EAB aircraft.

Sure, I cannot claim to be the builder if I did not perform 51% of the tasks but that does not prevent me from being the owner.
Click to expand...
In your scenario #1, you stated that you, frequent_flyer did the building. Since you are talking about a kit, you are required to perform 51% or more of the actual building.
 
frequent_flyer said:
But if I buy an EAB that someone else built (scenario one) I did no building and I did, in effect, pay for someone else to build it. Your distinction would prevent the sale of EAB aircraft.

Sure, I cannot claim to be the builder if I did not perform 51% of the tasks but that does not prevent me from being the owner.
Click to expand...

I think what he is saying is the original intent of the law was not to enable for profit activities- such as building a plane and fairly quickly turning around and selling it. By law- the two examples are identical- which is why it is being done.

I think what he is saying is eventually the FAA may take issue with this as they did not anticipate it when original law was written. They may close what they see as a loophole.



But I dont know. I dont have a dog in the fight either way.
 
Cardiff Kook said:
I think what he is saying is the original intent of the law was not to enable for profit activities- such as building a plane and fairly quickly turning around and selling it. By law- the two examples are identical- which is why it is being done.

I think what he is saying is eventually the FAA may take issue with this as they did not anticipate it when original law was written. They may close what they see as a loophole.
Click to expand...

If a shop has three or four guys building two or three identical kits a year; they are manufacturing said kit. They sell it as an EAB but likely had a buyer before the build started. That's something the FAA is likely to frown upon. A one man shop building a kit over a two or three year period and than selling it after completion is likely seen very different in the eyes of the FAA. Some guys like to build and aren't interested necessarily in owning and flying the plane. The Bally Bomber is an example of the joy of the build. Sure, it's semantics but if the FAA decides to declare an EAB builder a manufacturer, good luck proving otherwise. Remember, with the FAA, you have to prove you were not in the wrong in most cases. That could get very expensive. Let's hope that slippery slope doesn't come crashing down.
Marty57
 
I think the "hired gun" builders fill a need.
Lots of people want RV's, for example, yet don't have the skills and/or time to build one.
So "Joe Thumbs" hires someone who's built a bunch of them to build it for him,
or buy one from the same guy after he's built it.
GA benefits by having (hopefully) a safer better airplane than if Joe built it himself.
My problem is when Joe applies for and gets the repairmen's certificate.
I think this happens a lot, esp with the "builder assist" programs that some of the kit mfr's offer.
 
If the FAA is ever going pursue this gray area as it has been described, the first place they will have to go is the RV community, as there are literally companies that are building, and/or selling "build assist programs" to thousands of new RV owners. I'm all about Experimental, but I will say that 51% on paper is and 51% in person is subjectively very different. Defining what percentage of each portion covers that area of the build is the key to these companies success.

I'm not throwing anyone under the bus but I built a brand new modern cub in 5.5 days, signed off and ready to fly. And those days were 7-3, with one hour lunches. Builder Assist programs are awesome for certain individuals. :)

pb
 
Here is a question: how hard is the bearhawk 5 kit (or other bearhawk kits) to build compared to other well known kits- like the carbon cub?

I have been watching the Osborn videos of their 5 build, and I gotta say, it don't look easy (yes, I realized it was difficult going in- but wow- hats off to the builders.) Wondering how kit specific that is.
 
I know the builder of that 5. It was his kit that he built with the purpose of recreation and education. He met the FAA's parameters without question. Period. Even if you are bothered by it for some reason he still met the parameters.

He is good at it and it was I think his 5th or 6th Bearhawk product....a Modle A and Patrol from plans, an LSA kit, rebuilt another LSA that had an accident, and the prototype Five. This was his second Five.

There are still a few retired professional fabricators out there. They are very good fast aircraft builders....in fact they are the best EAB builders that exist. Better than mechanics, even dentist. Way better that pilots who build.

This article was from 2018...he was at three then.
https://www.kitplanes.com/the-three-bearhawks/
 
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Cardiff Kook said:
Here is a question: how hard is the bearhawk 5 kit (or other bearhawk kits) to build compared to other well known kits- like the carbon cub?

I have been watching the Osborn videos of their 5 build, and I gotta say, it don't look easy (yes, I realized it was difficult going in- but wow- hats off to the builders.) Wondering how kit specific that is.
Click to expand...

Seems like there isn’t much of a build manual for the bearhawk. Pretty much has the attitude of your the builder you can build it how you’d like.

The manuals I’ve seen for the carbon cub are very clear in what goes where, and every part is included. I have heard they talk to you when you call with a question. Probably why the carbon cubs are a looooot more money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Cardiff Kook said:
Here is a question: how hard is the bearhawk 5 kit (or other bearhawk kits) to build compared to other well known kits- like the carbon cub?

I have been watching the Osborn videos of their 5 build, and I gotta say, it don't look easy (yes, I realized it was difficult going in- but wow- hats off to the builders.) Wondering how kit specific that is.
Click to expand...

Everything specific to the Bearhawk is included in the kit, things that are general aircraft parts or hardware are not. The plans are very good and require a little studying to figure out how most things are done. For example the plans may call out AN426-3 rivets for the wings skin but not the length. You have to figure out where a 3.5 vs a 4 needs to be installed. Vans will tell you exactly where one vs the other is used or have a bag marked 'wing skin rivets'. With a Bearhawk you have to determine that. My personal feeling is you should know that anyway, or know how to find out. There is more room for different ways of accomplishing things with the kit versus other kits I'm familiar with. The boot cowl, engine cowl, doors, side windows for example are part of the kit but in raw material cut roughly to size, not match drilled or pre punched like some kits. Both good and bad I guess. It is more work requiring more builder input but also allows for more personal taste without wasting kit supplied material. With good build practices and attention to detail you can build a Bearhawk to a very high level of fit and finish, although this does not come as easily as some of the other kits. We have worked for years to build a relationship with outside vendors to provide Bearhawk specific finish parts. Daniel at Sport Aircraft Seats can provide an interior for all the Bearhawk models now. Clint at Vetterman has his excellent exhaust systems available for all the models. Scott at Hooker does a nice job with seat harnesses. I'm working with Amsafe for an airbag system requested for a customer. Catto, Lycoming, Hartzell, Airframes Alaska, Carbon Concepts have Bearhawk specific options. Wicks Aircraft offers a complete hardware kit for the Bearhawk line. So everything is available if not included in the kit. Some of the components are well ahead of other kits. The wings for example come at an advanced stage needing only the internal controls fitted and the last skins riveted down. Already drilled, dimpled, internally primed and ready to finish. The welded tanks are done, ready for install.
I recently finished a build manual that will be included in new kits, hopefully this will help with one way of doing things. There are other manuals available from other builders as well as the youtubers. The build community is strong with an active chat group. Mark Goldberg is great at answering questions with a phone call and I pick up the slack for tech questions.
So the Bearhawk is a good kit and getting better all the time, well supported although not as 'mature' as some others that have invested in advanced machining, matched hole tech, customer service departments and extensive marketing etc. The kit pricing reflects this and I think is a great value in the market.
 
Bearhawk Builder said:
And if Peter can do it, how hard can it be :)
Click to expand...

FACTS Dave! hahahahaha.

Just because I don't like to sugar coat things much, let me just add - I'm glad Dave is a friend, nearby, and has built what, 4 Bearhawks plus a cub?

*When building you can choose to stick build a plane from plans (which is what Bob Barrows had intended from the start). Those that do have much more experience, time, and passion than I do.
*In my opinion, in today's kit offerings, you can buy a factory assisted build, an erector set kit, a quick build kit, or a raw materials kit. Using the titles I have given them you can basically assume the different levels of completeness and build support provided in hard copy (not referring to phone support).

My personal opinion is that for ship-to-your-home production kits, you have ones such as Cubcrafters that set the standard for completeness. All parts are produced. All manuals are provided. All hardware is not only provided, but is individually wrapped and labeled. Then you have kits that are like RV's, where everything is stamped and cut, and you rivet your life away building it. But, awesome manuals and support.

Then you have more the normal kits (in my perspective) where you have parts, pieces and manuals, but you still buy interior, hardware, fabric and such to make it all fly.

The Bearhawk is without doubt an outgrowth of the plans-built phase. You get a completely (and well done) welded fuselage, fully primed and ready for assembly. Complete tail surfaces are welded and ready. You get wings (all aluminum) that are not only assembled, but is completely flush riveted across the top, and the bottom skin is partially riveted so you can open it up, string your aileron cable and lights, and then close up just the bottom skin.
Flaps and ailerons are fully assembled and waiting for you to fabric cover.

And like other kits, you can purchase your hardware and other items (wheels, tires, brakes, engine, prop) from the company (at a good price) or you can source your own.

The shortcoming is that until Dave's manuals come into play, there is essentially no build manual. Yes, you have fabrication plans, but for someone that hasn't assembled one, there is no obvious roadmap to start and work down the path. Now I knew before I purchased a kit, and I am confident of my abilities to succeed in it, but even so there are days of frustration (like with any I suppose) that I rely heavily on Dave or others to answer build questions that would be in an assembly manual. If you've build before, I expect it's a fairly easy task.

All said, I still am sure I've made the right choice because of my flying experience in the Model 5, the Patrol, and a little bit in the LSA. The Patrol is absolutely the best fit for my mission and the day will come where I'll be flying the one I've built.

pb

Edit : As Tom mentioned, it provides a ton of opportunity for creativity on the build side, which for me is great, for others, not so much.
 
Farmboy said:
FACTS Dave! hahahahaha.

Just because I don't like to sugar coat things much, let me just add - I'm glad Dave is a friend, nearby, and has built what, 4 Bearhawks plus a cub?

*When building you can choose to stick build a plane from plans (which is what Bob Barrows had intended from the start). Those that do have much more experience, time, and passion than I do.
*In my opinion, in today's kit offerings, you can buy a factory assisted build, an erector set kit, a quick build kit, or a raw materials kit. Using the titles I have given them you can basically assume the different levels of completeness and build support provided in hard copy (not referring to phone support).

My personal opinion is that for ship-to-your-home production kits, you have ones such as Cubcrafters that set the standard for completeness. All parts are produced. All manuals are provided. All hardware is not only provided, but is individually wrapped and labeled. Then you have kits that are like RV's, where everything is stamped and cut, and you rivet your life away building it. But, awesome manuals and support.

Then you have more the normal kits (in my perspective) where you have parts, pieces and manuals, but you still buy interior, hardware, fabric and such to make it all fly.

The Bearhawk is without doubt an outgrowth of the plans-built phase. You get a completely (and well done) welded fuselage, fully primed and ready for assembly. Complete tail surfaces are welded and ready. You get wings (all aluminum) that are not only assembled, but is completely flush riveted across the top, and the bottom skin is partially riveted so you can open it up, string your aileron cable and lights, and then close up just the bottom skin.
Flaps and ailerons are fully assembled and waiting for you to fabric cover.

And like other kits, you can purchase your hardware and other items (wheels, tires, brakes, engine, prop) from the company (at a good price) or you can source your own.

The shortcoming is that until Dave's manuals come into play, there is essentially no build manual. Yes, you have fabrication plans, but for someone that hasn't assembled one, there is no obvious roadmap to start and work down the path. Now I knew before I purchased a kit, and I am confident of my abilities to succeed in it, but even so there are days of frustration (like with any I suppose) that I rely heavily on Dave or others to answer build questions that would be in an assembly manual. If you've build before, I expect it's a fairly easy task.

All said, I still am sure I've made the right choice because of my flying experience in the Model 5, the Patrol, and a little bit in the LSA. The Patrol is absolutely the best fit for my mission and the day will come where I'll be flying the one I've built.

pb

Edit : As Tom mentioned, it provides a ton of opportunity for creativity on the build side, which for me is great, for others, not so much.
Click to expand...
Chop Chop
 
Like @Farmboy I knew what I was getting into but my BH Companion, it is likely more work than some of the other kits Pete mentioned, but hard to beat the performance of a BH for backcountry flying.

I never built anything before in my life, takes some patience and some head scratching, but in the end all planes fly by the same principles so there are no secrets…. Only how to complete the task of the day

I have kept a pretty detailed build log on both the BH forum and the EAA builders log if you want to have a look
 
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