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J-4 project-3.14159265359

Not when they built Voyager

Glenn
The Voyager is a Graphite honeycomb structure which is a far cry from the glass over foam process he is known for and is what My Quickie and Long EZ are built from. Yes there are areas with foam over glass in the Voyager.
Not to mention the Voyager utilized an engine that is absolutely unobtainable with the water cooling reducing fuel consumption from 4.8 gal/hr to 2.8 gal/hr.
Now, shall we mention the Voyager has a similar nearly 2:1 speed ratio as many other of these designs.

The plane I am building will be better than the 5:1 speed ratio that I design and build to.
 
When I met Dick Rutan he told us they had a free lunch bet every day on who could save the most grams.

Just saying, your braces could have been 1/16 welding rod?

Charlie, your workmanship is top notch,but it's tough to keep to 1% of mission overbuilt

Glenn
 
I hope to think you were in the audience last year at Burt and Dick's presentation. Dang was Burt in top form.

I am happy with the 3/16 .020 tube brace I am using, this is not going to be a 90mph plane in it's final form and I would not utilize bracing smaller than the 3/32 wire in the original Coupe.
 
Was lucky enough to met him one on one in front of Voyager display at EAA year after they added the exhibit. Talked to 4 of us for almost an hour.

Glenn
 
Was lucky enough to met him one on one in front of Voyager display at EAA year after they added the exhibit. Talked to 4 of us for almost an hour.

Glenn
I was there in '87 I was in a short conversation with Burt around that time which was also about when Gene Sheehan was going on the rampage with anyone who altered their design at all. Heck in my Quickie I have the first customer LS1 airfoil with Carbon spars in my plane, not to mention Rotax power.
Dang Osh was enjoyable back then.
 
Rudder balance,
I extended the 1" sq forward rib on the rudder, this has a curved front to it allowing for the airfoil shape. It also has a groove cut in the topside with a chunk of 10mm thick lead to be installed.
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At this time this chunk of lead is excessive, once the rudder is painted then covered and the lead is bonded in place this can be trimmed back to hit the balance spot on.

For the time being I am done with the rudder and now the stabilizer spars have been jigged on the build table. So they are next.
 

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How excessive is the lead? Will the finished fabric weight balance it? A correct amount would be a slight over balance.
 
Quite a bit, When I measured with a digital scale this morning, from the tip of the 3/8 tube it needed 1.68lbs if I recall. Measured back at the square tube it was calling for 2.6ish, I have forgotten actually. Not having calculated the covering weight and once I recalled I have a few of these lead plates removed from an X-ray room being renovated this seemed like the path to go.
Once I extended the 1" tube I just cut a triangle to suit the space. This piece being about 3.8lbs which I would roughly call a full pound heavy.
Once the welding and fab work is completed, paint ed then covered. The fiberglass front made and ready to bond on, I will start trimming the lead from the aft and trim forwards. Probably going to be in the 2 ½-2 ¾ Lb range when done.

This rudder is definitely heavier than a standard Cub part but will suit my needs.
 
Rudder balance,
I extended the 1" sq forward rib on the rudder, this has a curved front to it allowing for the airfoil shape. It also has a groove cut in the topside with a chunk of 10mm thick lead to be installed.
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At this time this chunk of lead is excessive, once the rudder is painted then covered and the lead is bonded in place this can be trimmed back to hit the balance spot on.

For the time being I am done with the rudder and now the stabilizer spars have been jigged on the build table. So they are next.

ht be better?
charlie im failing to understand the need for any weight when you have all the air pressure against it? wouldnt more area above that weig
 
charlie im failing to understand the need for any weight when you have all the air pressure against it? wouldnt more area above that weight be better?

The area of a control surface forward of the hinge serves a different purpose than the added weight.

The area provides an aerodynamic assistance that sets the amount of force you need to apply to the controls to provide a desired "feel".

The weight is there to reduce or eliminate the dynamic movement of a hinged surface that is induced by air loads which is far beyond a humans control, "flutter we call it"

Aerodynamic,
By adding more area forward of the hinge on a rudder will reduce the effort, or call it force your feet, or toes need to apply to get the desired surface movement.

Each designer and aircraft's mission will utilize a different aerodynamic ratio, But an example, the ailerons will generally be ¼-½ the force the elevators need while the rudder will take 5-7 times that effort to get the intended movement. These forces are all determined from the humans dynamics.

The weight,
A Cub with it's flat surfaces and metal to metal hinges are not prone to developing "flutter".
An aircraft with airfoil shaped surfaces and where all my controls are mounted with ball bearings can be very prone to "flutter".
What happens here is the surfaces center of pressure will vary from where the hingeline is. And as you vary the camber in the surface from control movement this center of pressure changes fore-aft on each side of the surface. As such there are allot of interesting dynamics going on which the one thing the industry has determined is you balance the weight of the movable surface along the hingeline you will reduce the chance of a dynamic oscillation.
Engineers in the industry might choose a partial balance in some applications but is is common on the rudder which is generally a symmetrical shape to aim for the surface to be balanced right along the hinge. Aka a 100% balance which is my goal.
 
Just off the jig,
Here is the spar structure for the stabilizer, this is just set in place on top of the longerons.
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The rear spar locates in the white pivot on the fuse, this spar as seen here is 6' long and the brace struts mount onto the stud on each end.
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The front spar will get a carbon fiber tube bonded into the CroMo tube extending it out to the full 8' span this stabilizer will be.
 

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A bit more here, I have fitted the horizontal stabilizer frame in place, first time mounted.
Then mounted the elevator spar assembly for it's first trial fitting, I am liking this.
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The inner pivot region
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That was yesterday, today I started on the brace struts which it turns out I need some specific material and hardware so this aspect is on hold.
Maybe I will start forming the trailing edges of the elevators.
 

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Time to start forming the elevator trailing edges. I wish I had a chance to wait before cutting this 1" MDF since there have been many revisions since this tool was made. But it is still useful and the complete assembly will be laid over full size up to date prints.
What the differences are since the tool was cut on the CNC Router has been some increase in cord, mostly to the inboard region but the big change is a substantial increase in span which was derived through discussions many pages back in this thread.
Thank you guys for leading me to what I am now building since I feel the higher aspect ratio is well warranted.
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Quite a bit more to do before this is ready not to mention this needs to be replicated for the other side.
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Boy this was allot of work for one half decent image, I have two trailing edges for the elevators now. These as with the rudder are oval shape as well.
I also did the final welding on the spars which took better part of an hour to make sure they were straight as can be, heck they are going to move when the ribs get welded on anyway. I also press formed the ends of the spars so they mate well with the 3/8 TE tube.
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Got it hanging by it's neck. Well something like that. But here is one of my elevators, far from done since it just has ribs on the top side.
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Elevators,
The first side, port side was a long day of tweaking, tack welding, cutting the tacks and tweaking the TE tubes again. Once this first one matched the curve of the other TE which I felt had a better natural curve I built out one face of ribs, in this case the top ribs. This is the part that I had hanging under the canopy.

I am working over a printed drawing. Interesting that even my most recent drawing was still not spot on to the part. I have redrawn the elevator but not printed it yet, the drawing on the table has a tracing of the right elevator''s trailing edge which I reworked this left side to match.
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The second side went together quite a bit faster since this one turned out to be the "Master" that the other one needed to be tweaked to match. To make a point it was pretty close to 10 hours to get the ribs and two brace wires tacked in place on the first part and today was about two hours. Still from start to finish took more time than that since we had friends over for a few hours, don't tell the Gov'ment that though.
 

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Now that I have two elevators I could not be satisfied with just placing them on the airframe inside the shop where I can not even run them through their range of travel.
So outdoors we go. The skies only cleared up a few hours ago from last nights storms so I did not expect it to be dry enough to bring the plane out.
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As with all control system parts on this project they mount on ball bearings and the cable ends utilize ball bearings.
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I connected one cable to the control stick to get a feel if I have the travel ratio between the stick and elevator even in the ballpark. I do. Of course nothing is proven this early on. I suspected the seat would interfere with aft stick travel, it does. I already have material to make new sticks but I really need to lock down all the bits and pieces before I make them.
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Thinking a bit, maybe it is time I move forward on my pedal assemblies. Then I can see how close I got the motion ratio to the rudder. Heck these all have adjustable ratios anyway.
 

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The horizontal in this plane will be strut braced rather than the more common wire bracing used on Cub style aircraft.
Part of my reason for this decision is the original J4A utilized streamline wire of which today carry a stupid price tag.
As such I bought streamline jury strut material from Carlson aircraft and make my own ends. Here I am showing the outer ends with one slid into place in the extrusion. There are a couple of details in the parts I made that I can not say are to my liking so these will probably get remade.
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I've gone back and forth on struts vs wires. My airplane won't be as fast as yours, so wires are probably fine, but it just bugs me a little bit, especially when I read about people having issues with 180hp +.
 
I've gone back and forth on struts vs wires. My airplane won't be as fast as yours, so wires are probably fine, but it just bugs me a little bit, especially when I read about people having issues with 180hp +.
With your build you need to support the vertical fin since it is just a single tube with a joint at the bottom. I built mine such that it is triangulated for the side loads and my bracing along the longerons have around 4X the torsional stiffness a Piper type fuselage has so it better supports the loads.

The issue with a 180+ has to do with the original ignition. With an ignition that provides a proper advance curve the engine is less prone to shake a plane apart provided it is built to reduce the chance of detonation even with a decent timing curve.
 
With your build you need to support the vertical fin since it is just a single tube with a joint at the bottom.

Right. I was thinking more about streamlined struts as opposed to wires from the vertical fin to the horizontal stabilizer. Don't know if there's much difference in drag.

Off-topic, but I noticed the Husky uses struts from bottom up. No bracing on the vertical stabilizer?

Edit to add: never mind about the previous question. Not enough coffee yet.
 
The Huskys I have seen are fully wire braced, I presume there is a newer model that does not need the Vfin braced?

There have been plenty of studies about the drag difference between round wire and streamline wire. But a standard Cub would not be a plane that I expect would be measurably faster with streamline wires. There are way to many other drag areas to fix before hundreds are spent on fancy wires.

I expect the streamline struts I an using might be no better than the round wires. I have not done any calculation of two 3/8 thick struts compared to four 3/16 round wires.
Mine will be faired better at the intersections but might be a wash.
 
Second set of outer ends for these struts. These are not finished but they are ten fold better than the first set.
I need to acquire the shims needed to set the struts up properly. The hardware used to lock these in place will be MS21042-6 nuts, and what is hard to see is the center of the stud on the horizontal is bored and tapped to take an AN3 or equivalent fastener to essentially "double nut" the assembly.
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The inner end at the fuselage I expect will attach to the underside of the longerons, not on top as in these images.
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I am moving forward with the attachment points for the struts. The outer ends will have four aluminum rivets as well as being bonded to their ends. The ends now utilize Delrin bushings that can be shimmed as needed. I was working with bronze which is odd for me since I have not used any metal bushings since I discovered engineering plastics many decades ago.
The inner end at this time has a steel mount tack welded to the lower fuselage. I may in time bolt this assembly to the fuse, time will tell.
If the tabs are welded I will use pin rivets to attach the aluminum struts to the steel tabs.
It is my intention to zinc plate the aft lower fuselage before painting. This will aid in the longevity of this aluminum to steel joint.

Back outside again.
The struts with a few detail shots.
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A few days ago I got the last tack welds in holding all the ribs and bits in the elevators.
The outer section forward of the spar will be a composite surface so that comes later in the year.

Good feeling when to get it outside again with the surfaces hung in place.
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Early yesterday I got the pilots side pedals tack welded from a bunch of sub assemblies made a year or so ago.
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And now the first trial fitting.
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After the trial fitting I found I had to re-position the pedals for frame clearance and inner brake arm room. With all known clearance issues accounted for I assembled the PAX side pedals.
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With these tacked together it was time to get them in place.
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I have now flipped the fuselage upside down again so it is easier to build and install all the pedal linkage.
 

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Oh and one might see in the images of the pedals above, a week ago I installed a divider between the pilot and pax pedals making it very difficult for someone to get their feet over onto the otherside rudder or brake pedals.
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Someday these might prevent an accident without anyone knowing so.
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Oh and one might see in the images of the pedals above, a week ago I installed a divider between the pilot and pax pedals making it very difficult for someone to get their feet over onto the otherside rudder or brake pedals.
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Someday these might prevent an accident without anyone knowing so.
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Sometimes on a solo cross-country I like to spread out into the middle of the seat. Left foot on the pilot's left pedal and right foot on the co-pilot's right pedal.

It's a nice change in seating position. Not sure if your divider would prevent that or if you'd ever do that, haha.
 
No this will not interfere. I got the pedal linkage built and installed yesterday and am working of the pedal adjustment mechanism soon. One can sit with both feet to one side or straddle with a foot to each side and fly essentially with a side stick. The seat is contoured with the center raised a bit such that a flat set would be more comfortable for center seat flying.

As I sit here on a calm morning after last evenings storms, I reminisce way back when I flew a C-150, I would take off, loosen the belt and move to the center of the plane. Trimwheel and throttle to finish the climb. Simply lean your head and sometimes ones shoulders to roll in and out of turns. Calm and peaceful.
 
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