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Crosswind?

Bit of a thread hijack, but .....
From FAA's AVIATION INSTRUCTOR’SHANDBOOK

1:Instructor tells instructor does,
2:Student tells instructor does,
3:Student tells student does
4:Student does instructor evaluates


 
The landings we have to really work at, using all our senses, knowledge and judgement, generally turn out far better than expected---often better than landings in normal conditions. I think it's natural to take the easy way, really thinking only seconds a day. Sometimes in an environment of invisible hazards we need everything working.
 
When push comes to shove, I TELL the tower what I'm going to do, not ask them. That controller isn't going to be in my shop for the next several months helping me repair my bird is the way I figure it. Only had to do that twice, I rarely fly anywhere with a tower, but at KPIH anyway, with acres of bare concrete in any direction, and with no other traffic at the time to consider, the controllers insistence for me make a "normal" approach, was ignored. I just did it, landed cross ways on the runway, almost 90 degrees to it, but right straight into the 25 to 32 mph wind. Told him "thanks for the help," and that was the end of it. Even better, my taxi direction kept me into that wind until I was behind a big hangar. The last time I had a 25+ direct cross wind on my 18' wide by 400' home strip, I landed on a neighbors grazing land, and called another neighbor to help me wing walk it back. First time in 10 years using this strip I had to do that, but the plane didn't get bent!
 
Tower, if you have it, shake the stick.


courierguy said:
When push comes to shove, I TELL the tower what I'm going to do, not ask them. That controller isn't going to be in my shop for the next several months helping me repair my bird is the way I figure it. Only had to do that twice, I rarely fly anywhere with a tower, but at KPIH anyway, with acres of bare concrete in any direction, and with no other traffic at the time to consider, the controllers insistence for me make a "normal" approach, was ignored. I just did it, landed cross ways on the runway, almost 90 degrees to it, but right straight into the 25 to 32 mph wind. Told him "thanks for the help," and that was the end of it. Even better, my taxi direction kept me into that wind until I was behind a big hangar. The last time I had a 25+ direct cross wind on my 18' wide by 400' home strip, I landed on a neighbors grazing land, and called another neighbor to help me wing walk it back. First time in 10 years using this strip I had to do that, but the plane didn't get bent!
Click to expand...
 
When I worked n Cold Bay, spring and fall bear seasons often had guides out on ocean beaches when a big storm came in. The standard village response was that FSS would call folks in town, and the whole village would turn out to "catch" and wing walk plane's to safe places behind a building, a fir truck or ??? To tie down.

I landed at Mobridge, SD this last summer, and had lots of help keeping the upwind wing down as we moved the cub to its tie down. Blast from the past.

i recall a certain guide landing in CDB with the reported wind of 60 with higher gusts in a Maule. Took four of us to hold the thing down and get it behind a fire truck. Amazing. Tail didn't come down till the thing had wings tie down.

MTV
 
Just thought id chime in with an experience. I took off on a 3 1/2 hr flight expecting winds around 10 on my arrival. Of course it was 18 gst 25 straight across on my arrival. We have a piece thats mowed for such occasions but this time it wasnt. I couldnd find it and with the cooleys and tall grass I wasnt going to guess. Anyway I came in looking good. Everything fine doing typical wheeler. Once I had tail just about down I had full rudder deflection and a gust hit me. I had full rudder and brake and pulling stick as hard as I could. I ended up close to side of runway but no ground loop. I figure I was already well over xwind component and once I got that slow and vulnerable I was in trouble. All worked out. Remained on runway and didnt ground loop. I have since replaced bottom seat cushion. I was landing on main grass runway so I was probably plowing with tailwheel. Pavement may have ended worse. Your call to park it is spot on. Dont forget, on a hot summer day your going to get beat up the whole way down also.
 
Big X-wind with forward CG no problem, aft or out of aft big problem. most banner landings way forward CG little fuel (long arm on rudder) but after you stop big fun taxing.but you can always leave it tie it down till wind dies. It is common that I drive up wind with van and block wind when they taxi in. Now aft CG at gross weight I have gone off runway or rounded up more times than I care to think of.always missed the lights somehow. I always laugh when the tower wondering where I am going when I land across the runway but I always make sure I am cleared to exit on a taxiway so as long as a tire touchs the runway the rest is taxing.
 
Mike was that Maule at Cold Bay
Dick Gunlogson???
We used to never think much about the wind, until you landed into the wind in the tundra by yourself and the tail wont stay down, and it keeps lifting a tire up off the ground. It then will of course back the Cub right up pushing you backwards. The sec you touched the stick you would elevate Huges 500 style. More than one Cub with extended wings and unextended ailerons was rolled up into a ball in wind like that from elevating off the tundra and then deciding to make a turn that was tooo steep.
By the time they realized the math to turn in that much wind they had a wingtip back into the tundra......... Followed by a helicopter ride home and a full winters work to get it back flying again

Sent from my LG-K450 using Tapatalk
 
Well I don't think he ever worked for Don persay, but they were both down there as well as Ron Hayes over at Wildman................... Dick very well may have been into Dons place giving him a hand flying or something like that as far as I know they got along ok.
Dick is a very capable fella with a cub or the maule. He has had one since they first came out with the M6 model. I bought an engine from Don one time that had been in their hanger up in Kenai for twenty years from a Cub that blew over , ripped out of the tie downs at Bear Lake . They had stored it upside down on a 15" car tire, He said it was a very strong engine. I was going to start it up and fly it but old Joe Stanger insisted we pull a couple of clyinders to look at the camshaft first. It looked exactly like a brand spankin new one! After about 20 hours of flying it I found out it would turn a 82/42 at 2500 static so it had lots of HP........................... performed like crazy. Flew it around 600 hrs and then toped it . He was full of Polar Bear stories, and a true old timer.
 
TurboBeaver said:
Mike was that Maule at Cold Bay
Dick Gunlogson???
We used to never think much about the wind, until you landed into the wind in the tundra by yourself and the tail wont stay down, and it keeps lifting a tire up off the ground. It then will of course back the Cub right up pushing you backwards. The sec you touched the stick you would elevate Huges 500 style. More than one Cub with extended wings and unextended ailerons was rolled up into a ball in wind like that from elevating off the tundra and then deciding to make a turn that was tooo steep.
By the time they realized the math to turn in that much wind they had a wingtip back into the tundra......... Followed by a helicopter ride home and a full winters work to get it back flying again

Sent from my LG-K450 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yes, I think it was Dick. Those "arrivals" always sort of blended together. Dick was handy with a plane, for sure, as were several of those guys. George Kitchen used to fly salmon surveys in some huge winds in his Cub. Said it worked great....fly down a creek to a hole, deploy flaps and slow/hover over the hole while observer counts fish, then pick up speed and move to the next hole.

MTV
 
Bob Curtis loved to tell about Flying his little 260 Helios down at ColdBay when it was huffing n puffin. He said he would fly up to FSS windows on one side and pull up come to a full stop and back up in the air and hover around to the other side,wave to them drop the nose and add power and sloooowly fly away!

Sent from my LG-K450 using Tapatalk
 
TurboBeaver said:
Bob Curtis loved to tell about Flying his little 260 Helios down at ColdBay when it was huffing n puffin. He said he would fly up to FSS windows on one side and pull up come to a full stop and back up in the air and hover around to the other side,wave to them drop the nose and add power and sloooowly fly away!

Sent from my LG-K450 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Orin Seibert took off from the ramp there with a big north wind in his Widgeon. Christmas Eve night, and he'd just finished up the catching up the mail to villages. Called FSS on radio, said close your eyes, and took off over top of the building. And a Merry Christmas to all.

MTV
 
This crosswind topic provoked me to read the Flight Instructor's Handbook FAA-H-8083-9a this weekend. Outside of the dry material on human behavior and learning the rest was informative (as a non-instructor).

Closing in on 5 digit TT over 43 yrs there have been only two times an Instructor demonstrated a maneuver while I was along. Both were in good crosswinds..one in my first week of dual in a C-150 and one about 6 months later in a 7ECA I owned while doing wheel landings.

After that during private/commercial/instrument/seaplane/annual configuration check/ or Biennial rides they never employed either the Demonstration-Performance or Telling-and-Doing techniques. No demos whatever just talk. I guess that's why I've had to fend for myself and take interest in riding with others and observing their methods.

Times have changed.

GAP
 
BC12D-4-85 said:
This crosswind topic provoked me to read the Flight Instructor's Handbook FAA-H-8083-9a this weekend. Outside of the dry material on human behavior and learning the rest was informative (as a non-instructor).

Closing in on 5 digit TT over 43 yrs there have been only two times an Instructor demonstrated a maneuver while I was along. Both were in good crosswinds..one in my first week of dual in a C-150 and one about 6 months later in a 7ECA I owned while doing wheel landings.

After that during private/commercial/instrument/seaplane/annual configuration check/ or Biennial rides they never employed either the Demonstration-Performance or Telling-and-Doing techniques. No demos whatever just talk. I guess that's why I've had to fend for myself and take interest in riding with others and observing their methods.

Times have changed.

GAP
Click to expand...

Actually, Gary, you're not alone in those experiences. That portion of the Flight Instructors Handbook was written by someone who had some very different teaching techniques than most instructors. i don't know if they were shrinks, or..

To pass the flight instructor test you have to commit all that stuff to memory, but as soon as you start instructing, a lot of the theory goes out the window.

MTV
 
Thanks Mike for the comments. The OP asked about risk management and personal minimums (in his case as related to crosswinds) and that's addressed in Ch. 9 and Appendix D of the Handbook. I'm going to review those sections as I found that subject was briefly discussed at my last Biennial and now I have a basis for digging into it deeper.

There were times a demo of expected flight would have helped, rather than the cockpit yelling in days pre-intercoms or the self-teaching that eventually occurs. For those of us that never fly with others much (I count six times I've shared flight with others in their planes in 40 some years) how are we to know options and alternatives for operations? Instructors get it routinely, others may infrequently or never.

GAP
 
There is little doubt that flight instructing can be one of the best ways to improve one's own flying. You learn a lot, including sometimes what not to do.

But communication is the key to success. Demonstration can help, but to learn you need to do.

MTV
 
TurboBeaver said:
More than one Cub with extended wings and unextended ailerons was rolled up into a ball in wind like that from elevating off the tundra and then deciding to make a turn that was tooo steep.
Click to expand...

Whaaaatttt???? I thot once you were in the air that stuff was irrelevant !!!!
 
S2D said:
Whaaaatttt???? I thot once you were in the air that stuff was irrelevant !!!!
Click to expand...

For eight years, I flew a Super Cub configured like that in Kodiak, mostly on floats. Miserable roll control....actually more like NO roll control. The good news was that airplane taught me what the rudder is for.

MTV
 
Mike,
That sounds like Orin, was boarding a" Peninsula " flight here in Presque Isle, Maine (they fly here as well as AK) and who was doing flight checks but Georgie Tibbits!!!! Lol
He used to fly our guests into Painter Ck Lodge,regularly in a Navaho with 50' ceilings in some places and fog to the ground In others........ Just drove around like he was in a J3......

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Been more than one 206 on floats flipped over in a taxi situation. I remember one went over in Illiamna the week before I went out there hunting with the cub. Got everyone's attention.

I have been in some bad winds in the cub and alone on an airport. Couple of times I taxied at an angle into the wind to get upwind of a place to park, then shut down and walked the plane, nose into the wind, back till I could tie it down. Also have landed on the ramp so I could get to the tiedown without going sideways to the wind.

Biggest I had to deal with was 55 kts direct out in Galena. Came off the hunting strip loaded and got above the trees when all of a sudden I got rocked.

Not going to land on the little gravel bar with that type of wind I continued to town where the big strip was.

Galena is set up nice for big crosswinds, gravel on one side for skis and big tires, elephant ear on the other for fire bombers. Solution that day was come in over the hangers and put it down crossways nice and gentle into the wind and roll out onto the elephant ear.

No nerves shattered. Sometimes you just make it work by landing into the wind, and let the controllers steam.

Just because the tower talks to you when you are on final does not require you to respond until you get yourself into a safe situation. Just saying.
 
TurboBeaver said:
Mike,
That sounds like Orin, was boarding a" Peninsula " flight here in Presque Isle, Maine (they fly here as well as AK) and who was doing flight checks but Georgie Tibbits!!!! Lol
He used to fly our guests into Painter Ck Lodge,regularly in a Navaho with 50' ceilings in some places and fog to the ground In others........ Just drove around like he was in a J3......

Sent from my LG-K450 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yes, a lot of those guys who flew the Peninsula were interesting characters. Most were polar bear guides in the day. George Theile, George Kitchen, Don Johnson, Gunlogsen, and others.....they had some stories.
 
It's good to see this thread still going strong. I have developed better skills for crosswinds and the one that sticks in my mind is to apply an input and maintain it even after landing. May seem obvious for some but I had caught myself dropping the input after landing. My instructor tuned me up! Still lots of learning to do!
Many thanks to all that have replied to this thread and contributed to my education.:)
 
Interesting to go out in 15 gust to 20. 90* cross wind and do left and then right patterns. After about 4 each way I'm DONE!
 
Colorguns said:
Interesting to go out in 15 gust to 20. 90* cross wind and do left and then right patterns. After about 4 each way I'm DONE!
Click to expand...

But, the amazing thing to me is that those are almost always my absolute best landings......could it be that I'm working a little harder and paying a little closer attention during those?

MTV
 
I agree. Its those nice smooth aproaches then just before touch down natures elevator throws you in the air. Better be ready when it drops you out the other side. At least when your getting beat up on the way to touch down your on guard.
 
mvivion said:
But, the amazing thing to me is that those are almost always my absolute best landings......could it be that I'm working a little harder and paying a little closer attention during those?

MTV
Click to expand...

maybe it is just more memorable since it was trashy air and you still got a great landing out of it?

I agree that they occur and I remember them, and the amazement I had as well
 
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