I have the opportunity at an FBO that I part-time work at to do a sales-leaseback of my PA18. The reason for considering this proposal is so that I can instruct in the PA-18, basically doing tailwheel endorsements, under the FBO's insurance umbrella. Under this Sales-leaseback proposal/agreement, I would have the ability to set the rental rate for the PA-18, and the hourly instruction rate. My question is, What's the market rate for a PA-18 rental? Again, the rental would be with only myself instructing in the plane with the student. The students would never get to solo in the plane. In my state there is a J3 and a Pacer that are available for this type of rental use, however their aircraft rental rates are around $150/hr. From what I've previously researched in Alaska, a PA-18 rental rate is $250/hr, or more, plus instructor. I can't find any other Super Cubs for rent in my state for this type of rental/flight instruction. So from a market perspective, part of me says I need to be competitive and charge a rate around $150/hr. However, due to the Super Cub having a much higher hull value, and more performance than the J3 and Pacer, I should be able to charge a premium. Any thoughts on rental rates for a Super Cub would be much appreciated.
Thoughts on rental rates for a SuperCub - for dual instructional purposes only; No Solo Flight
- Thread starter mjdonovan
- Start date
Grant
FRIEND
At Work.....
I would charge a minimum of $250/hour plus instructor rate. I believe you will find that people who want a good training experience are happy to pay a fair rate. There will ALWAYS be people who complain about a price...whether its the price of beans or the price of a new airplane, and it's usually the same person....
Bottom line is if you want to be succesful I would recommend you price the airplane and your rates at a premium so that you are satisfied with the return, otherwise you risk resenting each time you have to go fly at a rate you are not happy with. You can always price high and discount....
Bottom line is if you want to be succesful I would recommend you price the airplane and your rates at a premium so that you are satisfied with the return, otherwise you risk resenting each time you have to go fly at a rate you are not happy with. You can always price high and discount....
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Let’s see….you’re putting the plane under the FBO’s rental coverage to save money, right? So, if you’re not even paying insurance, why do you feel you are justified in charging a “premium”?
Just playing devils advocate here.
BUT, I would absolutely go through that FBO insurance arrangement with a VERY fine tooth comb. Who does insurance pay if there’s an accident? How much will they pay you? Can insurance surrogate against instructor, ie: you. Who has absolute control of plane? Etc.
Old saying: There are no free lunches.
MTV
Just playing devils advocate here.
BUT, I would absolutely go through that FBO insurance arrangement with a VERY fine tooth comb. Who does insurance pay if there’s an accident? How much will they pay you? Can insurance surrogate against instructor, ie: you. Who has absolute control of plane? Etc.
Old saying: There are no free lunches.
MTV
MTV,
The main purpose of the sales-lease back from my perspective is not so much about saving on insurance/maintenance costs, albeit its $7K annual to instruct in my own plane, but for the insurance protection it kinda-of offers (a veil layer). You do, however, bring up a very important point on subrogation, and making sure FBO's insurance company can't subrogate the CFI (me - for costs incurred in their payment to a claimer). That all said, it doesn't stop anyone from suing anybody for anything.
The main purpose of the sales-lease back from my perspective is not so much about saving on insurance/maintenance costs, albeit its $7K annual to instruct in my own plane, but for the insurance protection it kinda-of offers (a veil layer). You do, however, bring up a very important point on subrogation, and making sure FBO's insurance company can't subrogate the CFI (me - for costs incurred in their payment to a claimer). That all said, it doesn't stop anyone from suing anybody for anything.
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
I looked at this one time, and my insurance lady laughed at me and asked to talk to my wife directly to have me committed if I continued.
A couple things, and Mike hit the big one, that you need to consider is that as the legal owner of the plane, and instructor, you are leaving yourself exposed for a number of gotchas. Even with leaseback agreements, lines can be blurred. This is one time that having a good insurance attorney review the policy and agreement might be good money spent.
Why? Well, even if you are on the controls, it will not prevent someone from locking a brake, freezing up on the controls, or a multitude of other things that can happen. If anything does, the instructor is at fault. If anything happens mechanical, it falls back on the owner to be responsible that all stuff is done on the plane. But hey, insurance companies won't argue a 150k payout much...
Aircraft prices have gone sky high, (pardon), so make sure your value is set accordingly.
Lastly, you ask about rates, and Stewart brings up cost of insurance... are you asking rates for the cub to the customer, or rates to the school? A premium to the customer might be appropriate, but I don't think $250 is reasonable, even wet. The cost of fuel up here, hangars and insurance all are high. Hearing Steve's rates, I could see you getting $200 maybe, but above that folks will pay for a vacation and go elsewhere.
Only my opinion!!
A couple things, and Mike hit the big one, that you need to consider is that as the legal owner of the plane, and instructor, you are leaving yourself exposed for a number of gotchas. Even with leaseback agreements, lines can be blurred. This is one time that having a good insurance attorney review the policy and agreement might be good money spent.
Why? Well, even if you are on the controls, it will not prevent someone from locking a brake, freezing up on the controls, or a multitude of other things that can happen. If anything does, the instructor is at fault. If anything happens mechanical, it falls back on the owner to be responsible that all stuff is done on the plane. But hey, insurance companies won't argue a 150k payout much...
Aircraft prices have gone sky high, (pardon), so make sure your value is set accordingly.
Lastly, you ask about rates, and Stewart brings up cost of insurance... are you asking rates for the cub to the customer, or rates to the school? A premium to the customer might be appropriate, but I don't think $250 is reasonable, even wet. The cost of fuel up here, hangars and insurance all are high. Hearing Steve's rates, I could see you getting $200 maybe, but above that folks will pay for a vacation and go elsewhere.
Only my opinion!!
stoldriver
Registered User
Arizona
Chandler air service here in Arizona has a super cub (actually more than one) that you can solo for$122/hr. Flight instructor for that airplane is $82. Single data point but Chandler is trying to make money with it. If your main purpose is to make money, I'd say charge at least those numbers. Maybe if you are doing it for fun, discount the airplane a bit as long as you aren't losing money. In my opinion, you should always charge at least the going rate for instruction time (unless it's a family member or fellow SC.org member:smile
, more if you are really good or in a unique niche. I suspect the fbo may want a cut also. I'd also say that maybe because there is never a possibility of solo, maybe an airplane discount is appropriate. Maybe not.
Wayne
, more if you are really good or in a unique niche. I suspect the fbo may want a cut also. I'd also say that maybe because there is never a possibility of solo, maybe an airplane discount is appropriate. Maybe not.Wayne
Taledrger
SPONSOR
SW Michigan
I've been doing Tailwheel Endorsements in my 160hp L21B for the last few years. I charge $165 per flight lesson. (includes 1 hour ground and 1 hour flight)
YES THAT'S CHEAP!! Insurance $3000/yr (no solo), fuel $4.75/gal, maintenance kitty $50/hr, engine kitty $50/hr.. so probably barely break even BUT.. the airplane is pretty self sufficient. It doesn't cost me a dime to own it and have my personal use..
I'm fortunate to have a major Aviation University just a few miles away that does not offer Tailwheel Training. Simple word of mouth there has been amazing.
I could probably raise my price by $100/hr but I doubt I would have anywhere near the activity..
YES THAT'S CHEAP!! Insurance $3000/yr (no solo), fuel $4.75/gal, maintenance kitty $50/hr, engine kitty $50/hr.. so probably barely break even BUT.. the airplane is pretty self sufficient. It doesn't cost me a dime to own it and have my personal use..
I'm fortunate to have a major Aviation University just a few miles away that does not offer Tailwheel Training. Simple word of mouth there has been amazing.
I could probably raise my price by $100/hr but I doubt I would have anywhere near the activity..
bob turner
Registered User
We do very low key J3 dual only. The aircraft is long since paid for, so I carry liability only. It was $1400/year through some weird underwriter, but this year they wanted 25 hrs m/m for students. That sort of missed the point - we were coverting folks to tailwheel.
So Avemco stepped up - quoted $1400/year liability only for me and a max of ten named students per year.
We charge $100/hr for the airplane and $100/hr for me, and I have more business than I want.
Pay careful attention to MTV - when you lease your aircraft to the FBO, you may not be insured at all! And since you own the aircraft, your SAFE CFI insurance does not cover you.
My SAFE CFI insurance is not effective in the J3, but I am covered almost as well by the Avemco policy.
Yes, anybody can sue you. What you want is for your insurance underwriter to defend you. If you have assets, do not move without liability insurance.
opinion.
So Avemco stepped up - quoted $1400/year liability only for me and a max of ten named students per year.
We charge $100/hr for the airplane and $100/hr for me, and I have more business than I want.
Pay careful attention to MTV - when you lease your aircraft to the FBO, you may not be insured at all! And since you own the aircraft, your SAFE CFI insurance does not cover you.
My SAFE CFI insurance is not effective in the J3, but I am covered almost as well by the Avemco policy.
Yes, anybody can sue you. What you want is for your insurance underwriter to defend you. If you have assets, do not move without liability insurance.
opinion.
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
Wow!! $100,000 for an engine is about three times the going rate.;-)
But $100/hour to maintain a cub getting student use is not out of line!
Taledrger
SPONSOR
SW Michigan
Well... it ALL goes in "my pocket" we'll see if there's anything left when I need an engine..;-)
WhiskeyMike
MEMBER
West Boxford MA
Plan on overhead being much more than you think. The good thing about charging a high price is... you won't steal customers from the other guys and won't create enemies. You'll be selling a slightly different product. Let them snigger at you, but better that them hating you for undercutting prices. That never ends well.
Would intend to agree with your opinion especially your last sentence. Maybe it’s been covered before here; is a signed liability waiver worth more then it’s ink?
bob turner
Registered User
Maybe, but it still doesn’t buy lawyers. For a good lawyer in an injury situation, think “$100 Grand” to start.
As to expenses - for us it is $25/hr fuel, $160/student for insurance (we require 5 hour commitments, so $32/ hr), hangar rent (we have to pay that anyway, but I budget $25/hr toward it) and then there is maintenance. I do my own, including engine work, but a Cub will eat up a couple grand per annual at a local FAA repair station.
So we have left over - $18/hr for tires, engine overhaul set-aside, new equipment (those Garmin GTR-200s and API tailwheels) and profit.
Unless you want to go full-on pro, and fly eight hours a day, this is a darn hobby - a way to stay airborne without buying the gas. You will not break even if you buy hull coverage and only fly an hour a day.
As to expenses - for us it is $25/hr fuel, $160/student for insurance (we require 5 hour commitments, so $32/ hr), hangar rent (we have to pay that anyway, but I budget $25/hr toward it) and then there is maintenance. I do my own, including engine work, but a Cub will eat up a couple grand per annual at a local FAA repair station.
So we have left over - $18/hr for tires, engine overhaul set-aside, new equipment (those Garmin GTR-200s and API tailwheels) and profit.
Unless you want to go full-on pro, and fly eight hours a day, this is a darn hobby - a way to stay airborne without buying the gas. You will not break even if you buy hull coverage and only fly an hour a day.
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
If it was me, I think I'd buy a Champ or similar to do the t/w training in.
Low purchase price, low operating cost, roomy.
Also might be a better learning experience with a lowered powered aircraft,
newbies will have to learn to do without that horsepower being available to pull their chestnuts out of the fire.
Low purchase price, low operating cost, roomy.
Also might be a better learning experience with a lowered powered aircraft,
newbies will have to learn to do without that horsepower being available to pull their chestnuts out of the fire.
bob turner
Registered User
I like the Champ, but the J3 is a better trainer.
Paul Heinrich
PARTNER
Illinois & Wisconsin
I’ve never met an aircraft owner who came out ahead on a leaseback unless their intent was to incur a deductible tax loss or an accelerated tax right-off.
Takeoffs and landings are the most damaging and risky part of flying. That’s mostly all the plane does during tailwheel endorsement training. Good training would require gusty/high crosswind TOs, landings, and taxi conditions. Wear and tear on your airplane (and your nerves) would be many times that normally incurred and a major premium for both equipment and instructor would be more than justified. IMHO.
Takeoffs and landings are the most damaging and risky part of flying. That’s mostly all the plane does during tailwheel endorsement training. Good training would require gusty/high crosswind TOs, landings, and taxi conditions. Wear and tear on your airplane (and your nerves) would be many times that normally incurred and a major premium for both equipment and instructor would be more than justified. IMHO.
sj
Staff member
Northwest Arkansas
I leased back my first super cub for a number of years and it worked out really well for me, and the FBO. Fast forward twenty years and I have had a 172 on leaseback for three years now. It is earning way more (and paying all its expenses) than any other investment I'm involved in at the moment.
In my experience, it really all comes down to the leaseback terms and how much they are going to charge you for maintenance and parts - all of the other "stuff" is pretty static - hangar, insurance, even fuel by comparison to maintenance. The plane threw a cylinder in flight right AFTER a student solo (thankfully instructor was back on board) there was a lot to fix after that and it was expensive, but it still came out five figures ahead for the year.
I let the flight school handle all the maintenance. They call me on big stuff to see if I want to use new, used, or refurb parts. The school has an amazing twenty five year accident free record - and the instructors and students are taught to treat airplanes like they are their own.
The other BIG significant item with all of the fixed costs, is how often it flies. If it only flies a few hours a month, you are going to lose.
Be aware also, that once you lease it back, you are going to pay whatever they want to use "your" airplane, and you will be subject to their schedule. You don't want to be the guy that boots renters because you need the plane that day - it will not get used much if you do that.
No doubt other's experiences may vary, these are just mine.
sj
In my experience, it really all comes down to the leaseback terms and how much they are going to charge you for maintenance and parts - all of the other "stuff" is pretty static - hangar, insurance, even fuel by comparison to maintenance. The plane threw a cylinder in flight right AFTER a student solo (thankfully instructor was back on board) there was a lot to fix after that and it was expensive, but it still came out five figures ahead for the year.
I let the flight school handle all the maintenance. They call me on big stuff to see if I want to use new, used, or refurb parts. The school has an amazing twenty five year accident free record - and the instructors and students are taught to treat airplanes like they are their own.
The other BIG significant item with all of the fixed costs, is how often it flies. If it only flies a few hours a month, you are going to lose.
Be aware also, that once you lease it back, you are going to pay whatever they want to use "your" airplane, and you will be subject to their schedule. You don't want to be the guy that boots renters because you need the plane that day - it will not get used much if you do that.
No doubt other's experiences may vary, these are just mine.
sj
