Good Training Idea

[aalexander]

Here’s a NTSB report of an instructor and student that killed themselves by getting a little too low on a clear night.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001208X06898&ntsbno=IAD97FA014&akey=1

Here’s another guy who killed himself by getting too low on a clear night.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20010410X00725&ntsbno=IAD01FA038&akey=1

Here’s yet another guy who killed himself on a clear night. His passenger survived, apparently on a clear night, you can see the power lines just before you hit them, as that is the last thing the passenger reports seeing.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20031016X01743&ntsbno=NYC04LA007&akey=1

Here’s yet two more who got a little low on a “practice approach” . Even though the night was clear, they still couldn’t see well enough to keep from hitting the trees and killing themselves.


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20050413X00449&ntsbno=IAD05FA052&akey=1


And yet another hitting trees and crashing on a clear night, these guys survived.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001211X11568&ntsbno=FTW99LA057&akey=1

Here’s another, 3 dead in this one, again on a clear night. This time from the west coast, just to show that it’s not just easterners running into trees on clear VMC nights.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001208X08924&ntsbno=SEA97FA215&akey=1

Since we’re going for geographical diversity, Here’s one from the south, sunny Florida…only it wasn’t sunny, but it was clear. Didn’t hit any trees, but there was a convenient power pole. The report doesn’t mention if it was over 200 ft tall or whether it was lighted.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001212X20444&ntsbno=ATL00FA024&akey=1


Here’s another clear night flight into obstructions one survived, one didn’t

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20031215X02037&ntsbno=FTW04FA038&akey=1

Here’s another, in clear skies at night, this one mentions that the moon was almost completely full (89% illuminated) Still wasn’t quite enough to see the trees before it was too late.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001211X13899&ntsbno=MIA94LA047&akey=1


This one was not only under almost clear skies (22,000 scattered pretty much clear) But it was still twilight, light enough for witnesses to actually see and describe the aircraft attitude, still not enough light to keep from flying into the trees


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20040429X00531&ntsbno=IAD04FA017&akey=1


Here’s another guy who died flying into trees he thought he would be able to see, on a clear night. This one on a go-around.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001211X10561&ntsbno=FTW98FA338&akey=1


Clear skies, dead pilot, again.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001206X02501&ntsbno=NYC95FA001&akey=1

Clear skies, 2 dead. Hit trees they couldn’t see

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20051005X01581&ntsbno=DFW05FA251&akey=1

Clear skies, 2 dead, CFI and student couldn’t see the trees as well as they thought they could.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20040130X00132&ntsbno=MIA04FA044&akey=1

Even those clear tropical nights didn’t help see what killed these 6 people.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001212X21025&ntsbno=LAX00FA191&akey=1


Here’s a pair who were doing the same thing as Cliff: the pilot was under the hood and the safety pilot was keeping him from hitting trees …well almost.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20010119X00327&ntsbno=FTW01LA050&akey=1



This isn’t all of them, not by a long shot. There’s plenty more. These that I’ve listed have a couple things in common: Except for the last one, (which doesn’t specify), they all occurred in clear skies. And they all thought they “had everything under control” right up to the point that they *could* see the trees and it was too late. The thing is, pilots do kill themselves with depressing regularity under the exact same conditions that Cliff thought was “under control”. Oh, and I did recall correctly, there are two hills within a mile of the runways there, one 410 ft high, and one 460 ft high, I don’t know how high the trees are on those hills…do you? What exactly do you think Cliff and his instructor had going for them, that these others lacked? That magic element that made it safe to do pretty much the same thing that kills plenty of imprudent pilots every year?

Sorry, I’m not likely to change my view that wandering around at night in hilly areas, seemingly “scraping the tree tops ” really is not a good idea.

 

[willyb]

Well it's nice to see so many people who don't want to see Cliff die.He was trying to learn and He did.He learned what not to do and He shared it with US.We have all done things and sworn to never do that again[after we stopped shaking!].It's great to share this stuff it will probably save someone's life.As a student pilot thirty years ago I did a lot of my training at night because I couldn't get away from work during the day.I did everything with a QUALIFIED instructor,hood,stalls,unusual attitude,cross countrys and lots of takeoff and landings.
In my limited experience I don't see night as the problem.I believe it is bad habits and poor technique carried over from daytime flying that gets pilots into trouble.
People are flying WAY too far from the airports in their approachs.If you cannot make the runway if you close the throttle anywhere in the pattern you are too far out and too low,very dangerous.As a previous post stated"scraping in over the trees' is not the place to be even during the day!My normal approach is 800 agl on downwind with the jury strut on the runway.Close the throttle at the numbers or sooner and fly base and final adjusting glidepath and airspeed with slip and pitch as necessary.If I have to add power I didn't do it correctly.
Managing risk is something we have to do in all aspects of life.Proper preparation is essential to a successful outcome of anything.Be honest with yourself when you assess your skills and don't put yourself or anyone else in a dangerous position unnecessarily.Learning is good and it's great that we have a place to share it. Bill

 

[aalexander]

Well it's nice to see so many people who don't want to see Cliff die.He was trying to learn and He did.He learned what not to do and He shared it with US

Well, that's just it, BIll. Apparently Cliff didn't learn anything, because in his last post he is still reccomending doing what he did, without reservation.

It seems that there is some confusion about what is being objected to by myself and some others. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not objecting to the lesson itself, but rather the execution. I'd agree that there is some value in having a VFR pilot blunder around trying to find an airport with absolutely no visual references. That would probably be a good wake-up call for many folks. However, allowing the student to descend well below any reasonabley safe altitude at night with no apparent plan for not hitting something you can't see is not a good idea. Even in his follow up post, Cliff gives no indication of what plan was for not hitting something. "It was a clear night" is not a viable obstacle avoidance plan, as anyone can see from the abundance NTSB reports of pilots running into trees on clear nights. So I aggree that there is some value to the exercise, and I agree that there is value is someone experiencing the disorienting effects of complete lack of any visual cues. I don't agree that it's wise to descend at night until you are within 40 feet of the surrounding hills (not counting the height of the trees) until "geez it looked like we were scrapping the tree tops!"

 

[Bob Breeden]

aalexander

Aalexander:

Right on! Good NTSB examples.

Omitting night and IMC is also my way of staying in the safe zone. Civil twilight or day VMC for me ONLY, please. Should conditions deteriorate, got a Cub that can set down anywhere, and food and a tent to wait it out, thank you. And by nightfall I'm ready for rest. We all want to be doing this when we are 90, right?

It was a thrill, though, years ago, to gradually empirically learn this. Also got an instrument rating thinking I could overcome night IMC safely. All pilots with at least a modicum of initiative must actually "Pee on the electric fence themselves" in some cases to alter their behavior. Hopefully the healthy fear kicks in early enough to prevent an accident. Taking someone elses word that it is not the thing to do is not necessarily how independent pilots are wired.

I know of some of the people involved in the accidents in your reports. The reaction of pilots I know, as well as my own reaction, was "Why were they up there anyway?? Complete collapse of the safety shield, giving up the ability to see." They say it takes 3 errors, combined together, to make an accident. Flying at night or IMC can be giving in to one of the errors, right off the bat.

Bob Breeden

www.AlaskaAirpark.com

 

[Alex Clark]

Back when I obtained my instrument rating, most of the flying was at night due to scheduling and being able to shoot missed approaches in class B airspace. (did it in the lower 48 desert.)
But that was with an IFR instructor, IFR certified plane, at the assigned altitude, on a flight plan, with flight following, and usually I cheated and flew the same course during the day, just to check things out.

I really hated that in class B when the big jets would show up, the controller was saying watch to my 3 o'clock and my instructor was saying "I can't see anything out there"...... not a good feeling....

 

[nesincg]

However, allowing the student to descend well below any reasonabley safe altitude at night with no apparent plan for not hitting something you can't see is not a good idea.

Again you quote what you don't know. How do you know he wan't descending on or above the glideslope and over the airport? Last time I checked it was the recommended way to land at an airport at night.

 

[StewartB]

I must be dim. When Cliff told his story and related what he saw when he lifted the hood and found himself too low, I assumed that was the lesson. We learn from our mistakes. This instructor let Cliff make one while monitored, which is far safer than unmonitored. I think the instructor did Cliff a service. I had an instructor like that. I had an FAA check rider like that, too. Those were memorable flights, and I learned from them.

If instructors only teach how to fly in perfect situations the student will have no idea how to get out of an imperfect situation. Or in this case, how to avoid getting into that imperfect situation.

Good teachers don't just preach, they facilitate learning. That's my take, anyway.

Stewart

 

[aalexander]

How do you know he wan't descending on or above the glideslope and over the airport?

I don't. that why I wrote: " with no *apparent* plan". Because if there was a plan, Cliff has not made it apparent to us by describing it. After two posts on the subject, the second after he has caught quite a bit of flack about the safety of the episode, he hasn't mentioned any system for avoiding obstructions that might not be visible at night. Don't you think if he *had* been following the LOC and GS, he would have mentioned it? I certainly would have, given the preceeding commentary. But he didn't. The only thing he mentioned in defense of the flight is that it was a clear night. The lack of mention of following the LOC and GS is conspicuous in it's absence. Given what Cliff has written, your supposition that they were following the glideslope is completely baseless speculation, there's nothing that even remotely suggests that. SUre, he the DFI might have had a Radar altimiter and FLIR, but it wasn't mentioned. As for your repeated suggestion that they were over the airport, go back and read the first post.

geez it looked like we were scrapping the tree tops!

Now, unless the airports in your neck of the woods have trees growing up in the middle of them, you aren't going to be scraping the trees, or even appearing to be doing so if you're over the airport. You aren't scraping the trees on an ILS either, so I think it's unlikely that they were following the glidelope.

What Cliff has written suggests very strongly being low over the trees, and not on any vertical guidance. In absence of clarification from him on the subject, your theory about being on the glideslope or over the airport is completely groundless, and counter to what little has been written.

 

[Bob Breeden]

StewartB

Good Point StewartB!

Bob Breeden


www.AlaskaAirpark.com

 

[S2D]

I must be dim. When Cliff told his story and related what he saw when he lifted the hood and found himself too low, I assumed that was the lesson. We learn from our mistakes. This instructor let Cliff make one while monitored, which is far safer than unmonitored. I think the instructor did Cliff a service. I had an instructor like that. I had an FAA check rider like that, too. Those were memorable flights, and I learned from them.

If instructors only teach how to fly in perfect situations the student will have no idea how to get out of an imperfect situation. Or in this case, how to avoid getting into that imperfect situation.

Good teachers don't just preach, they facilitate learning. That's my take, anyway.

Stewart

That was my take on the situation too, but every time I tried to write a response to aa, it sounded like I was advocating suicidal behavior. After reading aa's accident reports and looking at others, I wonder why anyone would even get in an airplane much less at night.

 

[nesincg]

baseless speculation

I have speculated nothing. I'm suggesting you don't know all the facts and yet you continue to write as such. It is you who continues to make up an elaborate show based on nothing.

My "speculation" is he was a professional flight instructor and knew that he had a safe margin for error. I draw no other conclusions. Flame away at me all you want.

 

[Samsam]

Good teachers don't just preach, they facilitate learning. That's my take, anyway.

Stewart

Indeed. Practical experience stays with you for the rest of your life. Better judgement or even "gut instinct" is formed by having done things first hand. The good, the bad, and the ugly. That is what makes a better pilot. Not hangar theories or even NTSB reports. Heck, statically speaking, fuel exhaustion was a greater threat to Cliff's health that was his flying into weather decision. If you need to read report after report to convince you that you should check your fuel prior to departure, maybe you shouldn't be flying in the first place.
Had Cliff done this without a safety pilot, it would have been suicidal. With a safety pilot on board, it turned out to be a memorable and unforgettable experience. That experience ultimately makes him a more informed pilot.

 

[behindpropellers]

Ok...

So you guys can keep bickering....

Here are a few reasons to get an instrument rating (even if you do not fly in the clouds)


1. Better understanding of weather.
2. More weather related resources and how to get it while flying.
3. Better understanding of radio communications with ATC and how they can help you.

Getting your feet wet with just doing a couple lessons will only make your confidence go up. With that confidence you will push the limits.....and then we get to read about it from flipflop.

 

[Grant]

I have my instrument rating but would not even consider flying in even marginal VFR right now since I havent flown in several months. I understand the reasoning behind floundering around only to lift your hood to see you are not where you want to be, but the time to do this is when you are working on your instrument ticket. I makes no good sense to me to train for something you should not do. I know the argument about "what if you find yourself in that situation" Well my answer is "get your instrument rating & do your best to stay out of that situation" I think everyone posting on this subject is sincere about thier concerns for another's safety. Safety is such an important issue which is why we sometimes get a little bent out of shape.

The reality is in the NTSB reports.

Be Safe!

 

[Chuck E.]

Well troops I usually lurk here but have decided to jump in with a few comments.

First does anyone here remember using two stage amber for simulating IMC during instrument flight training in little bug smashers?

Two stage amber is covering the windows and windshield with amber plastic. Then the pilot getting the training puts on blue goggles including the sides of the goggles.

Amber and blue make black, so the pilot flying sees everything inside colored blue, except outside is black.

The instructor sees the outside world in amber, much like skiing goggles.

This is the best method of teaching instrument flying I ever experienced and is fool proof.

Simulators are great, but they still lack the true sound and feel and motion of actually flying an aircraft.

I make that observation from having trained in simulators from the link trainer to the latest sim technology at the
Airbus Industrys factory in Toulouse France.

I hope to finish my Cub this winter and enjoying what time I have left on this earth after finally retireing this past spring.

I started on a Cub so I may as well finish on a cub.

Chuck E.

 

[Lippy]

I have mixed emotions on this area under discussion. The original post by overeasyguy was in regards to doing something some pilots may not want to do. Nearly all of you just jumped down his throat. This is fine to a certain extent but after the first few haranguings it gets redundant and counterproductive. Have I ever done anything stupid? Holy mackerel, I think I’ve got the market cornered on stupid. Have I pushed weather? Yep. Have I done other dim-witted things? Yeah. I’ve lived through all of them much of which is probably due to a pile of help from the big guy up stairs. Have any of you done similar things? Yeah. We all have if we’ve been flying long enough. Does one minimize the stupid things as we age? One would hope so. My point is simple. We’ve all been there. Maybe not flying IFR at night but figuratively speaking we’ve all been there. Ever buzzed a friend’s house? Ever thrown stuff out of an airplane? Ever flew an “over gross” airplane? Ever set your altimeter to zero for a local flight? Etc. Etc.

Now if the guy did something really egregious…like screwing around with another guy’s wife hey I’m all for pulling out all the stops and going after him with ALL resources available. But I don’t think this guy deserves the punishment.

We are here to help and to support one another. Have we helped this guy by alienating him amongst our group? I think not.


Lippy