Gordon Misch
MEMBER
Toledo, Wa (KTDO)
Pete, yeah that's what I was thinking about. Vic, good point, ha!
Fuel Injection or Carb?
- Thread starter Gordon Misch
- Start date
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Modern road vehicles self diagnose. Mainly to maintain emission standards but also to record and display trouble codes when tasked. They can go into a limp mode with reduced power if something isn't right so the driver isn't left stranded.
For an aircraft with lots of tech I'd want an instrument display that monitors and alerts the pilot to out of range data. It's available.
Gary
For an aircraft with lots of tech I'd want an instrument display that monitors and alerts the pilot to out of range data. It's available.
Gary
EFII's ignition has redundant CDI boxes. Their Bus Manager provides a smart backup power manager when you add a second battery. Not a big weight penalty with EarthX. The Bus Manager can even monitor fuel pressure and activate the electric pump if pressure falls off. Pretty cool tech. I have no disappointment in my API fuel injection or Pmags but if I was specifying an engine today I'd be tempted go with EFI and solid state EI. The fuel efficiency potential is incredible.
https://www.flyefii.com/products/bus-manager/
https://www.flyefii.com/products/bus-manager/
Gordon Misch
MEMBER
Toledo, Wa (KTDO)
Good points. Yes, the system does provide for component status monitoring.
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
Lots of issues with industrial Diesel engines. Ask Mark out in Platinum about his issues with generators for the town.
Commercial fishermen are all going back to pre-electronic engines to get away from break downs. Lots of guys missing openings due to a sensor putting an engine in limp mode, then it taking days to get to port for them to spend an hour and change a $50 sensor... and the loss of fishing is in the tens of thousands of dollars.
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Most of the considerations I would have is again keeping it maintained. Who can help, how long to get parts? Living in the lower 48 or Anchorage one probably has a much easier time than I do in my region of Alaska.
Commercial fishermen are all going back to pre-electronic engines to get away from break downs. Lots of guys missing openings due to a sensor putting an engine in limp mode, then it taking days to get to port for them to spend an hour and change a $50 sensor... and the loss of fishing is in the tens of thousands of dollars.
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Most of the considerations I would have is again keeping it maintained. Who can help, how long to get parts? Living in the lower 48 or Anchorage one probably has a much easier time than I do in my region of Alaska.
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
Farmers around here are having the same problems. Prices on 20+ year old
has more then doubled.Progress. ;-)
Glenn
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
Electronic ignition on diesel engines? Who knew?
That's funny!
For those that are not motor savvy, the 'new' thing for economy over the last decade or two has been dropping ignition in cylinders when not needed. Some autos actually will idle on half the cylinders to save fuel, (electronics shut off fuel and spark to the cylinders).
Then newer diesels shut down the fuel to the cylinders to save fuel. Of course, when something is not 'perfect', the engine goes direct to limp, as in very little power allowed so you can 'get home', often at 2-3 knots.
I don't know about you guys, but I pretty much ignore the check engine lights in my rigs. Always sensors getting carbon on it, or something stupid. Read the code and it is always a bad wire.
I fight hydraulic leaks in the old loader, so pick your problems you want to solve.
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
A long time ago in the Age of Steam there was a Beaver that had a yellow light that said "Push to Test". I'd do that for fun just to see what would happen. Might have been low fuel line pressure but don't recall. Now with these new electronic enhancements I expect there'd be even more gizmos and light show displays to play with.
Gary
Gary
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
Some of the 'improved' beavers have a second light- stall warning!!
Yea, seriously they suck.
I personally had a real bad experience with one of the electronic Ignitions -- first the failing with no diagnostics --Mag check was perfect but it shut down at 21 inches of manifold pressure with no warning no diagnostic features on this one (as most are only a few steps more advanced than the mags) and than no parts for 6 weeks. If it was not for that I would be all over them the advantages are obvious. None of it makes a difference when sh##t fails and you can not get parts. In aircraft I found the extra cost of FI in initial and at overhaul is about what you save in fuel -- no savings just heavier and more complex. Real EFI has way more advantages but is less proven and requires even more equipment ( weight and cost) besides making you into a test pilot as none are real well tested. Looking into the experimental realm where this is more common place on the Auto engine conversions you will find that the great manny forced landings are most often due to the complex mostly unproven fuel system malfunctioning.
I am not saying don't do it but be very aware what it is you are buying. I am curious about the Lycoming electronic mag replacement, it is simple enough that It may just be worth trying, unfortunately it is so simple that it has fixed timing so no advance no a lot to gain but should be more reliable than Points. I installed lots of similar systems in Marine engines 30 years ago with good results. They are backed by Lycoming so one one may be able to get service and parts.
The last point is the fuel Injected angle Valve engines are not as bullet proved as the better known parallel valve engines.
It is hard to improve on the low cost and weight of the carbureted parallel valve 320/360 series, almost bullet proved they just work.
Spend the extra cash on gas and fly the heck out of it. Save yourself a lot of headaches especially if you fly lots or use it for a living.
As one inmate mentioned if cash burns a hole in your pocket a constant speed prop will give you way more benefit all around.
cheers
I am not saying don't do it but be very aware what it is you are buying. I am curious about the Lycoming electronic mag replacement, it is simple enough that It may just be worth trying, unfortunately it is so simple that it has fixed timing so no advance no a lot to gain but should be more reliable than Points. I installed lots of similar systems in Marine engines 30 years ago with good results. They are backed by Lycoming so one one may be able to get service and parts.
The last point is the fuel Injected angle Valve engines are not as bullet proved as the better known parallel valve engines.
It is hard to improve on the low cost and weight of the carbureted parallel valve 320/360 series, almost bullet proved they just work.
Spend the extra cash on gas and fly the heck out of it. Save yourself a lot of headaches especially if you fly lots or use it for a living.
As one inmate mentioned if cash burns a hole in your pocket a constant speed prop will give you way more benefit all around.
cheers
sj
Staff member
Northwest Arkansas
Great thread, folks! Since developing 12 20# bags of carb ice over Pennsylvania at night once, I have always regretted not going FI in my C180 when the engine was replaced... That and watching the temperature differentials due to poor fuel distribution.
Most of the electronic ignition systems (full) only will run about 20-30 minutes if you have a complete power failure. I think about Paul Claus saying they flew 500NM over water between Canada and Greenland. There are places where 30 minutes is not enough. This problem may have already been solved, but I often think about it when flying EI.
As for charging jump packs - remember that a flashlight is largely a place to store dead batteries...
sj
Most of the electronic ignition systems (full) only will run about 20-30 minutes if you have a complete power failure. I think about Paul Claus saying they flew 500NM over water between Canada and Greenland. There are places where 30 minutes is not enough. This problem may have already been solved, but I often think about it when flying EI.
As for charging jump packs - remember that a flashlight is largely a place to store dead batteries...
sj
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
Let's assume complete power failure means loss of alternator and discharge of the main battery to the point it will no longer operate the electronic ignition. You would then select the ignition backup battery which, in a well designed and maintained system, will be charged to full capacity. How long the engine will run from that point depends on the battery capacity and the current draw of the connected ignition system(s). You can size the backup battery to give any duration you want.
Even with the silly small 2 AH battery in my Carbon Cub I think I can keep the engine running for well over an hour after first indication of an electrical system malfunction. My electrical system is well instrumented and will alert for abnormal battery current, abnormal alternator current, and abnormal main bus voltage. I also display, and alert on, ignition battery current and voltage. I have tested and twice demonstrated that the emergency ignition battery will run the engine in flight for over 30 minutes.
2a? Is it an IBBS? They make a 6a unit. Seems like a no-brainsr to increase duration. The 6a battery won’t fit into the smaller housing, in my case 3a. I wondered how the 6a would work for EI. The guys I know with full electric ingition-injection use a second EarthX. What injection does the 363 use? I assume a Bendix variant, so mechanical?
behindpropellers
Registered User
NE Ohio
I vote:
Injection
Primer
One Electronic Mag
One Mechanical Mag
Starting injection (continentals in my experience) - Once you learn your engine, not a problem.
Tim
Injection
Primer
One Electronic Mag
One Mechanical Mag
Starting injection (continentals in my experience) - Once you learn your engine, not a problem.
Tim
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
CubCrafters uses a stand alone 2 AH AGM battery for ignition backup. IBBS powers G3X touch system only.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
My CC363i uses a mechanical Bendix derivative injection system. It appears to be an Avstar AVX360 not the Precision Airmotive system documented in the maintenance manual.
wireweinie
FOUNDER
Palmer, AK
Just a note; your backup battery needs to be sized to keep your aircraft functional for as long as you can fly on a full load of fuel. Some people operate where 30 or 60 minutes just get you closer to the scene of the crash.
Web
Web
EFI. I never thought much about it until I visited a friend whose Cub has EFI. He was making a pilot-controlled louver front for his cowl openings because he could run LOP to the point his CHTs were too low. A big, high output engine could be dialed back to sip fuel for a true economy cruise. I’m not sure if my mechanical injection is up to that task, even though my injectors are very well balanced. Honestly, until he told me about it I had no idea such a thing was even possible. No matter how old I get, there’s always more to learn.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
Under what circumstances could an aircraft ever be full fuel duration from a safe place to land, assuming in-flight refuel capability is not present?
Even if full fuel duration is a reasonable requirement the time should start from first recognition of an electrical system malfunction not with selection of the emergency ignition battery.
I would not consider selecting my emergency ignition battery until the main battery would not run the ignition system. With master off the only load on the battery of my airplane is ignition systems and GPS keep alive. If the charging system failed when the battery was fully charged the main battery would keep one or both ignition systems running for several hours.
Gordon, need more decisions? Check out SDS fuel injection and ignition systems, they are extremely popular with the Vans RV gang, and have been around, as I understand it, far longer than the flyefii systems. In fact, and anyone feel free to refute this, also depending on who you ask, the SDS systems and components have been pirated by others in their design and engineering. The SDS website is a vast thing but it is EXTREMELY informative and they make good stuff. I get nothing for saying any of this, and don’t own one of their systems. Opinion formulated in shopping for a system and interaction via emails and phone conversations with the SDS people.
My decision to not purchase one of their systems was and has been driven purely by the oldest reason in the book….the depth of my wallet. I have my stock Bendix RSA system, dependable and true, needs an overhaul due to age, can have that done for about $1K. SDS pricing is as variable as you want it to be depending on your needs and choices.
Have fun with the search! The SDS track record is unparalleled.
FWIW, I would buy an SDS system before I’d of an EFII one. Just my .02 based on what I see in their various components designs etc.
www.sdsefi.com
Cheers, Mike “Oz”
My decision to not purchase one of their systems was and has been driven purely by the oldest reason in the book….the depth of my wallet. I have my stock Bendix RSA system, dependable and true, needs an overhaul due to age, can have that done for about $1K. SDS pricing is as variable as you want it to be depending on your needs and choices.
Have fun with the search! The SDS track record is unparalleled.
FWIW, I would buy an SDS system before I’d of an EFII one. Just my .02 based on what I see in their various components designs etc.
www.sdsefi.com
Cheers, Mike “Oz”
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Arizona is nothing like interior northern Canada where one carries as much gas as possible.
wireweinie
FOUNDER
Palmer, AK
Not all flights originate from a 'civilized' airfield. Some flights originate from sand bars and small clearings in the brush. If the issue is identified while on the ground, that means the aircraft will need to be started and flown at least to a location with maintenance facilities. Most, if not all operators locally have had to fly home with maintenance issues, many times electrical. Many of these locations require fueling before flight in order to make it back. Facts not 'what ifs'.
Now, take these parameters and add to it, an aircraft that requires electrical power to run the ignition or the fuel system. You'll need to be prepared to refuel for the trip, start the aircraft, and keep it running for the time required to get home. As no one can predict exactly what problem will arise, it's wise to be prepared for the worst case scenario. In this case an unusable ships battery. Battery might be bad, connections damaged, relays inop, etc. With an adequate backup battery you can start the engine (hand prop will save charge on the backup) and operate the aircraft normally for the flight home.
You just can't argue with an empty fuel tank. It's the ultimate limiting factor in flight distance.
Web
Now, take these parameters and add to it, an aircraft that requires electrical power to run the ignition or the fuel system. You'll need to be prepared to refuel for the trip, start the aircraft, and keep it running for the time required to get home. As no one can predict exactly what problem will arise, it's wise to be prepared for the worst case scenario. In this case an unusable ships battery. Battery might be bad, connections damaged, relays inop, etc. With an adequate backup battery you can start the engine (hand prop will save charge on the backup) and operate the aircraft normally for the flight home.
You just can't argue with an empty fuel tank. It's the ultimate limiting factor in flight distance.
Web
Gordon Misch
MEMBER
Toledo, Wa (KTDO)
All worthwhile thoughts guys - thanks, and keep 'em coming!
supercub83a
SPONSOR
North Pole AK
I am definitely a fan of fuel injection. I backed out of using the efii system 32 on my pa18 build due to an uneasy feeling about the complexity of the system. I am however going to use silverhawk FI.
I am not convinced there is ANY advantage of a carb. Every significant inflight problem that I have ever experienced with a piston aircraft engine was directly related to the carburetor. My current cub is on its 3rd carb overhaul in 11 years
The proposed advantages of the carb are simplicity and weight. Im not sure if either are real. Has anyone weighed the difference? A carb and its associated airbox, carb heat shrouds hoses and controls etc must be much heavier than the spider and fuel pump for fuel injection. Also consider that if it saves you 1 gallon over a several hour flight that is the same as taking 6 more lbs out of the plane. Additionally I dont know of anyone that has overhauled their carb in the field. Those things are filled with needle valves, floats and small passages that are just as susceptible at clogging and maybe more so since carbureted systems don’t typically contain fine inline filters.
The advantages of FI are many. More power (especially at high density altitude), better fuel economy (less fuel carried/better range), more even cylinder temps, and I would argue more reliable/fewer modes of failure. No carb ice, stuck floats, separating or leaking carb seals. Both systems can get clogged. I have had problems with hot starts but that can be dealt with and I would gladly take that to eliminate the risks of a carb and gain the performance of FI.
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I am not convinced there is ANY advantage of a carb. Every significant inflight problem that I have ever experienced with a piston aircraft engine was directly related to the carburetor. My current cub is on its 3rd carb overhaul in 11 years
The proposed advantages of the carb are simplicity and weight. Im not sure if either are real. Has anyone weighed the difference? A carb and its associated airbox, carb heat shrouds hoses and controls etc must be much heavier than the spider and fuel pump for fuel injection. Also consider that if it saves you 1 gallon over a several hour flight that is the same as taking 6 more lbs out of the plane. Additionally I dont know of anyone that has overhauled their carb in the field. Those things are filled with needle valves, floats and small passages that are just as susceptible at clogging and maybe more so since carbureted systems don’t typically contain fine inline filters.
The advantages of FI are many. More power (especially at high density altitude), better fuel economy (less fuel carried/better range), more even cylinder temps, and I would argue more reliable/fewer modes of failure. No carb ice, stuck floats, separating or leaking carb seals. Both systems can get clogged. I have had problems with hot starts but that can be dealt with and I would gladly take that to eliminate the risks of a carb and gain the performance of FI.
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supercub83a
SPONSOR
North Pole AK
I havent installed it yet or read the install manual, it ships with the engine next week. I do not believe a purge valve is required with it, though it may be an option.
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Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
A purge valve or bypass system require a fuel return line to a fuel tank or accumulator tank. Not all mechanical fuel servos are “zero leak down” and there’s a potential for the very slight fuel pressure from a gravity feed high-wing tank leaking fuel into the cylinders. Even with my Airflow Performance servo, which is zero-leakdown, API recommends that the fuel valve be shut off after engine shutdown, or better yet, a little before engine shutdown to relieve line pressure. I haven’t gotten into the habit and so far so good but I know guys who’ve had cylinders filled with fuel while parked. Hydraulic lock would really suck. I haven’t heard of any hydraulic lock but you would have to remove plugs are blow out the fuel.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
I suppose that would depend on the slope of the induction port below the injector. I have not studied that for the Lycoming IO-360 but it is my impression that any fuel leaking from the injectors of my CC363i (a Lycoming IO-360 with a few mods) runs down the induction tubes into the CubCrafters custom induction manifold and exits through the sniffle valve. That may only be true if the aircraft is level.
I have seen no caution about hydraulic lock on this engine but I was advised to shut off the fuel when parked to stop leakage from the sniffle valve. I shut off the fuel when parked in the hangar but often have to select one or other tank when parked on a sloped surface to prevent fuel transferring to the low tank and venting overboard. For this fuel valve "Off" leaves the path between tanks open.
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