Yesterday I made some bad choices and took off while there was some foggy patches in the for cast. Looked good on the ground soon the fog would be gone, however, I soon found myself and a friend in some dense fog about 1000 ft.. I did a turn-around and began a climbed. Soon we were up on top of the soup which looked like it went on forever. I set my garmin 90 for the hanger and in time I could see the ground breaking below and air field. Thinking back, the time I felt in danger was the turn back and climb. Where I live in Texas we have no mountains but we have many TOWERS. Once in the fog my turn back was as step as I could safely make it, still the thought of hitting an unseen tower during the turn and climb out really gets the ticker going! I was worried for those few seconds! I would like to up grade my 90 garmin for a 295 garmin which I think will show towers and also be up to date on the new ones constructed. Lesson learned, respect the fog!. teeweed
fog and towers
- Thread starter teeweed
- Start date
Luke_theDrifter
Registered User
Dillingham, Alaska
Nothing like REAL experince when you find yourself in the Milk Bottle for the first time by yourself.............
bad choices
The Garmin 496 displays towers when it is zoomed into the 3 mile range. The towers are color coded red or yellow as to threat. It is great information, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it. It is also only as good as its last download update.
The 496 also has an instrument page that might help you fly blind in a pinch.
The first thing to do after you get on top of fog is power back to best endurance and lean it out, and then call atc and flightwatch.
The Garmin 496 displays towers when it is zoomed into the 3 mile range. The towers are color coded red or yellow as to threat. It is great information, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it. It is also only as good as its last download update.
The 496 also has an instrument page that might help you fly blind in a pinch.
The first thing to do after you get on top of fog is power back to best endurance and lean it out, and then call atc and flightwatch.
Teeweed
Thanks for sharing your experience. I think that at some time we have all done something that we would have rather not done
Glad you made it back in alright. The idea of having the GPS that shows tower locations is great. It is another tool that can be used for situational awareness 
Brian
Thanks for sharing your experience. I think that at some time we have all done something that we would have rather not done
Glad you made it back in alright. The idea of having the GPS that shows tower locations is great. It is another tool that can be used for situational awareness Brian
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
I'd second Brians comments. If you've never found yourself in such a situation at least once, you're either pretty new to flying, or really cautious.
In any case, the Garmin 296/396/496 does have terrain awareness, including towers. I'd consider that a SUPPLEMENT to local knowledge and basic flying skills, though. It could certainly help you manage such a situation more safely, but remember a couple of things:
1) The database is only good on the day you download it. There are towers built every day.
2) Towers of less than 200 feet are not required to be permitted by the FAA, thus they may or more likely--may not be in the database. Consider that a 199 foot tall tower, built on top of a little 200 foot tall bluff is now effectively 399 feet tall. You GPS won't show you that obstacle, more than likely.
Learn from the experience, and try to manage this risk by AVOIDANCE, as opposed to gadgetry. The gadgetry is great to have, as a SUPPLEMENT, but if you rely on it, sooner or later, it'll let you down.
MTV
In any case, the Garmin 296/396/496 does have terrain awareness, including towers. I'd consider that a SUPPLEMENT to local knowledge and basic flying skills, though. It could certainly help you manage such a situation more safely, but remember a couple of things:
1) The database is only good on the day you download it. There are towers built every day.
2) Towers of less than 200 feet are not required to be permitted by the FAA, thus they may or more likely--may not be in the database. Consider that a 199 foot tall tower, built on top of a little 200 foot tall bluff is now effectively 399 feet tall. You GPS won't show you that obstacle, more than likely.
Learn from the experience, and try to manage this risk by AVOIDANCE, as opposed to gadgetry. The gadgetry is great to have, as a SUPPLEMENT, but if you rely on it, sooner or later, it'll let you down.
MTV
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
I agree with you on the 295, but the towers can be in place for 6 month before they get input in the data. I did about the same thing about a year ago and flew into a fog bank, but I even had a instructor with me. I had a 195 and used the inst page to make a 180 and get out of it. I even climbed because I knew I had not gone over any towers in the last 10 min, and you sure can't see any in a fog bank. So I did 3 out of 4 wrong and I have been flying for over 50 years and the instructor that was with me has every rating in the book.
Even if Tim has better abilities than us, I don't think he has much time flying on the Gulf coast.
Even if Tim has better abilities than us, I don't think he has much time flying on the Gulf coast.
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
At least Tims reactions are quick.
behindpropellers
Registered User
NE Ohio
Roger Peterson said:
Roger-
I just think using a GPS for tower avoidance is stupid, and not realizing the mistakes made compounds the problem. Tried it once, never will again if I can help it. We get plenty of crappy weather here from the lake IE lake effect, probably the same as the gulf, only its colder here.
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
If you are in the soup Tim, It would be dumb not to use it and every thing else you could to keep away from them.
behindpropellers
Registered User
NE Ohio
Roger Peterson said:
Roger-
That is true, it is the premise of "oh I have this gadget in the plane that tells me where all of the towers are" that bothers me. Its kinda like....if I do fly into icing with this cirrus, all I have to do is pull the chute!
There is nothing better than some instrument training, and knowing how to use the controllers to help you out of a situation. I'm not saying to get a full instrument rating, but get instruction on what to do, and how to use the tools available instead of being afraid of them. When is the last time you flew an ASR approach?
Tim
Aviator
Registered User
Canada (Legally)
I agree that gadgetry ought to be used as a supplement only, that is, a tool to confirm or question a known hazard. I also agree that we learn from experience; the more poignant, the longer lasting. I agree with mvivion's post in general but I don't understand his suggestion " try to manage this risk by AVOIDANCE, as opposed to gadgetry." If "avoidance" refers to obstacles, then the gadgetry sought is supposed to do just that: help avoid obstacles. If "avoidance" refers to hazardous situations, then I don't agree that risk management is the right skill.
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
Well Tim, it is hard to fly instruments in a J3, That is why I had the 196 with me for some extra help if I ever needed it. I was in the J3 when this happened. My big plane is a PA11 and I don't think I can fly instruments in that either. If we had a lot of instruments in the panel I don't think we would be having this conservation now would we.
duckhunter
Registered User
greenville, ms
partial panel on a 396 is a lot better than a wet compass but still has too much lag time to be used except in an emergency(which in my opinion is what you were in) if left on the hsi or compass page it is more accurate for detecting any type of turn. Try it and you'll see what i mean. Even with the 396 i never scud run an area i am not familiar with and have flown over very recently. A crop duster hit a cypress tree and died down here a few years ago and he had been flying that same area for 20 years.
behindpropellers
Registered User
NE Ohio
Roger Peterson said:
Bob-
If you have a 196 for an emergency, go fly your J-3 with the 196 in a simulated emergency. Like duckhunter says, trying to use one of these things for a primary instrument is tough.
Tim
slowmover
FRIEND
Little Rock, AR
Minimum elevation figures on sectional charts come in handy for times like this. Also you can look at an instrument approach plate and reference the minimum safe altitude, which is good for 25 NM from the airfield or navaid, as identified on the approach plate.
I have become paranoid about towers, and, since I often fly between 500 and 1000 AGL, I highlight any tower on my sectional that is >500 feet, either in the local area that I fly in, or along the route that I am flying. I have an old Garmin Pilot III which has no obstuction data.
Reminds me of a time when I was flying out of Rockport, TX. The CFI was in the right seat, giving me instruction for my commercial certificate, and we flew into a fog bank. He kept staring out the windshield, talking on the radio, as our airspeed went through about 40 kts... that's when I started yelling at him. Reality was I had watched the airspeed bleeding off, but I didn't say anything, deferring instead to his experience. Learned from that one, I did.
I have become paranoid about towers, and, since I often fly between 500 and 1000 AGL, I highlight any tower on my sectional that is >500 feet, either in the local area that I fly in, or along the route that I am flying. I have an old Garmin Pilot III which has no obstuction data.
Reminds me of a time when I was flying out of Rockport, TX. The CFI was in the right seat, giving me instruction for my commercial certificate, and we flew into a fog bank. He kept staring out the windshield, talking on the radio, as our airspeed went through about 40 kts... that's when I started yelling at him. Reality was I had watched the airspeed bleeding off, but I didn't say anything, deferring instead to his experience. Learned from that one, I did.
Dennis Blankenbaker
Registered User
Back in the "OLD DAYS" (pre GPS) I was flying a cub from Mineral Wells to Hemsted, skud running. I was worried about the towers so I got right over the R R tracks no towers there right. Well later I was told - in that area there are towers that are close to the RR tracks and the guy wires go over the tracks 
I wonder if I went under or over the wires or are they near a different track.
I wonder if I went under or over the wires or are they near a different track.
Speedo
FOUNDER
TN
Please don't rely on the 496 depiction of towers to keep you safe for two reasons. First, as has already been pointed out, there can be a long delay between the time a tower is erected and the time it gets into Jeppesen's database. Second, you can't count on the tower location and height to be reported precisely: a new, taller antenna can be installed, the tower erection crew may choose to site the tower in a different part of the same field, etc. When I worked in this industry neither the FAA nor Jeppesen was verifying the accuracy of the information that was being reported. It may be different today, but I doubt it.
Gordon Misch
MEMBER
Toledo, Wa (KTDO)
Seems to me that in the soup means to fly Instrument Flight Rules, PERIOD. And in an impaired visibility emergency, be prepared to convert to IFR immediately, or stay WAY away from that impaired visibility emergency in the first place.
They say good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment; and my experience conforms perfectly to that truism. Been there - continued VFR flight into IMC (legally, maybe it was MVFR) conditions, and been scared very, very badly three times. Once at Berner's Bay north of Juneau, Ak, once between Ketchikan, Ak and Prince Rupert, B.C., and once at Whistler, B.C. All three times I was suddenly surprised, but in retrospect shouldn't have been surprised by developments, given the conditions.
The first time I was pushing dark (looking for moose - duh - -) and on rounding a mountain corner at the mouth of Berners Bay, confronted an abrupt cloud front with very heavy rain between me and home. Made an emergency landing on a beach, where I could barely discern a little difference in brightness at the boundary between water and sand. Could not see washouts, stumps, etc. That was at Echo Cove. Those of you familiar with the area know there is (at least was) a marked runway at a camp there, but I couldn't find it, even knowing where it was - it was too dark. Didn't hit any of the stumps or logs on the beach, just by pure luck.
Next two times I was pushing marginal (for me) wx to begin with. I flew into a snow squall enroute Rupert from Ketch, and the snow very rapidly got very heavy. I was below treetop level along the beach, called FSS that I was in that situation and had only a marine dayboard number for navigational reference, and otherwise didn't know exactly where I was. As they were trying to figure out how to console me and when to call RCC, I flew out of the snow and high-tailed it back to Ketch. Yes, I had current wx and pireps. Both 'OK'.
Last time, encountered a sudden snow squall in a narrow valley just east of Whistler (most recent wx check, flight plan, and full fuel were about 1/2 hour prior). I was unable to continue or turn back, and landed on an icy road - no braking action, and slid into a big, very unforgiving stump. I have a broken airplane to remind me of that most recent scare.
Given the above and my judgmental contribution to each of them, I cannot imagine 'accidentally' flying into a fog bank in daylight. It HAS to be a decision to get close enough to the fog bank to fly into it - a decision I will do my darndest to NEVER make again without adequate instrumentation, avionics, and CURRENT IFR skills. Yeah, I'm instrument rated, but anymore I think that's less than valueless if not current in an appropriately equipped airplane.
They say good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment; and my experience conforms perfectly to that truism. Been there - continued VFR flight into IMC (legally, maybe it was MVFR) conditions, and been scared very, very badly three times. Once at Berner's Bay north of Juneau, Ak, once between Ketchikan, Ak and Prince Rupert, B.C., and once at Whistler, B.C. All three times I was suddenly surprised, but in retrospect shouldn't have been surprised by developments, given the conditions.
The first time I was pushing dark (looking for moose - duh - -) and on rounding a mountain corner at the mouth of Berners Bay, confronted an abrupt cloud front with very heavy rain between me and home. Made an emergency landing on a beach, where I could barely discern a little difference in brightness at the boundary between water and sand. Could not see washouts, stumps, etc. That was at Echo Cove. Those of you familiar with the area know there is (at least was) a marked runway at a camp there, but I couldn't find it, even knowing where it was - it was too dark. Didn't hit any of the stumps or logs on the beach, just by pure luck.
Next two times I was pushing marginal (for me) wx to begin with. I flew into a snow squall enroute Rupert from Ketch, and the snow very rapidly got very heavy. I was below treetop level along the beach, called FSS that I was in that situation and had only a marine dayboard number for navigational reference, and otherwise didn't know exactly where I was. As they were trying to figure out how to console me and when to call RCC, I flew out of the snow and high-tailed it back to Ketch. Yes, I had current wx and pireps. Both 'OK'.
Last time, encountered a sudden snow squall in a narrow valley just east of Whistler (most recent wx check, flight plan, and full fuel were about 1/2 hour prior). I was unable to continue or turn back, and landed on an icy road - no braking action, and slid into a big, very unforgiving stump. I have a broken airplane to remind me of that most recent scare.
Given the above and my judgmental contribution to each of them, I cannot imagine 'accidentally' flying into a fog bank in daylight. It HAS to be a decision to get close enough to the fog bank to fly into it - a decision I will do my darndest to NEVER make again without adequate instrumentation, avionics, and CURRENT IFR skills. Yeah, I'm instrument rated, but anymore I think that's less than valueless if not current in an appropriately equipped airplane.
redrooster
Registered User
western Washington
What's that quote,"a superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid having to use his superior skill"? Sumpin' like that anyway.....
