My cub is painted with dope. The dope is looking rough due to UV fadeing and has become chalk like on my wings. I had my local paint guy tell me he could clean up my wings and paint them with Aerothane with good results. I looked at some planes he did the same thing to and they look like brand new! I just dont have or want to spend the money to pay someone to due it. Any advice on how I should clean up my wings and does anyone have experience spraying Aerothane over dope. Dosent seem to hard to me Id just like some advice. Thanks in advance!
Aerothane over Dope help.
- Thread starter Bootlake
- Start date
supercrow
FRIEND
Smith Pond near Millinocket, Me
aerothane over dope
Certainly not a bad way to refinish, and will go over dope well with good durability. A couple things to keep in mind. If you have no experience with spraying aerothane, go with light coats, as it is a tricky material until you get used to it. Don't try to cover it with heavy coats! Remember that you will add some weight, depending on how much material you put on. Just clean and sand carefully (Don't get into your silver coats), and remember that any imperfections you can see in the old finish will be amplified by the new finish. Done right, it will make it look nice and give you some more time; if you aren't comfortable about doing it yourself, any money spent to have it done by someone with experience with aerothane is probably money well spent.Good luck and if you do it yourself, follow the directions carefully for the paint ( mixing,thinning,etc,), Reid
Certainly not a bad way to refinish, and will go over dope well with good durability. A couple things to keep in mind. If you have no experience with spraying aerothane, go with light coats, as it is a tricky material until you get used to it. Don't try to cover it with heavy coats! Remember that you will add some weight, depending on how much material you put on. Just clean and sand carefully (Don't get into your silver coats), and remember that any imperfections you can see in the old finish will be amplified by the new finish. Done right, it will make it look nice and give you some more time; if you aren't comfortable about doing it yourself, any money spent to have it done by someone with experience with aerothane is probably money well spent.Good luck and if you do it yourself, follow the directions carefully for the paint ( mixing,thinning,etc,), Reid
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
first, try cleaning the wings with http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/pfcleaners2.php
thinned with water, you may stop right there as it cleans up all the old chalk stuff so NICE..... but if not, clean some more with it to prep for paint..... have had owner help scrub when getting ready to repaint red wings and he was like, DARN he wouldn't of pull the plane apart to repaint if he knew it would clean up so well with just a bath!
aerothane is good, and what I use, I just use a charcoal mask..... sold fresh air system I had collecting dust for 20+ years...
thinned with water, you may stop right there as it cleans up all the old chalk stuff so NICE..... but if not, clean some more with it to prep for paint..... have had owner help scrub when getting ready to repaint red wings and he was like, DARN he wouldn't of pull the plane apart to repaint if he knew it would clean up so well with just a bath!
aerothane is good, and what I use, I just use a charcoal mask..... sold fresh air system I had collecting dust for 20+ years...
sierra bravo
Registered User
AIH sells a Hotsy soap product called CarbonAte w/ wax. It works great, too.
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
....or have liver problems, etc.
I know a guy about 10 years older than me who messed with chemicals and has issues due to that.
Wake up!!
I know a guy about 10 years older than me who messed with chemicals and has issues due to that.
Wake up!!
I just had my airplane painted with Aerothane over strong twenty year old dope and fabric. It looks fantastic!
I spent about 60 hours of sanding and several hours of patching. We made a mistake in choosing a paint the first go around had very little pigments and therefore is transparent...LEMON YELLOW. You could see every glue line mistake and paint spray pattern. Huge disappointment and unacceptable. I had another 10 -15 hours sanding off the yellow. From here on I will only use paints that have lots of pigment that translates to hiding substrate imperfections. I would not use LEMON YELLOW .... even if the fabric was new, knowing what I know now. Insignia White and Cruiser orange were the final choices both because of the ability to hide imperfections on an older substrate.
The key is preparing the surface for paint. Lots of sanding. You do not have to sand to silver but more weight will be removed if you do. You do have to cut the glaze from the old finish to get good adhesion for the new paint.
The painting was done by My mechanic with a fresh air system. There is no way I would do it even with the system he had and that is because of health concerns.
I have seen a similar job as mine that is five years old that looks like new. If I get 10 years I will be very happy. By then it will be a thirty year cover that has lived outside and will be ready for a restoration.
jim
I spent about 60 hours of sanding and several hours of patching. We made a mistake in choosing a paint the first go around had very little pigments and therefore is transparent...LEMON YELLOW. You could see every glue line mistake and paint spray pattern. Huge disappointment and unacceptable. I had another 10 -15 hours sanding off the yellow. From here on I will only use paints that have lots of pigment that translates to hiding substrate imperfections. I would not use LEMON YELLOW .... even if the fabric was new, knowing what I know now. Insignia White and Cruiser orange were the final choices both because of the ability to hide imperfections on an older substrate.
The key is preparing the surface for paint. Lots of sanding. You do not have to sand to silver but more weight will be removed if you do. You do have to cut the glaze from the old finish to get good adhesion for the new paint.
The painting was done by My mechanic with a fresh air system. There is no way I would do it even with the system he had and that is because of health concerns.
I have seen a similar job as mine that is five years old that looks like new. If I get 10 years I will be very happy. By then it will be a thirty year cover that has lived outside and will be ready for a restoration.
jim
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bob turner
Registered User
I personally will not spray anything catalyzed or with cyanates in it. If you are going to top- coat dope, make sure that there are no cracks you are thinking of covering. Most local examples are lost causes due to cracks accentuated by the harder glossy finish. The only cure is a patch, in my opinion, if you have cracks.
spinner2
MEMBER
Montana
Mike, if you smell almonds while spraying Aerothane what you're actually sniffing is cyanide. The fresh air system incorporated into my HVLP sprayer is so nice I can't imagine not liking it. Not only is it fresh air it is nice and cool too and I get hot wearing a Tyvek suit and hood.
Sent from my iPhone from the middle of nowhere using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone from the middle of nowhere using Tapatalk
Hardtailjohn
Registered User
Marion, MT
Pressure fresh air system is an absolute MUST with isocyanide...but NOT the only must! ALL of your soft tissue absorbs the cyanide... eyes, ears, throat, etc.....if you don't cover it all, you're just kidding yourself. Take it from experience.
John
John
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
I always, always, always paint everything with a solid coat of white first, before putting any colors on, or else as you found, you will get different 'shades' of the color on each diffrent batch/piece that will vary with lighting conditions too as the light bounces of the under coat....
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
lets see.... the 4+ packs of cigs I used to smoke, figured would get me first..(quit Sept 2004), and the 12 pack of beer a day....
but I am more a rebuild shop now, not a paint shop... not much painting anymore...
John...Just how the hell do you do that? I mean cover it all? How long do you evacuate the paint booth before you enter after painting. What eletronic sniffer is available to test for poisonous fumes?
Did not work in this case. We did the white followed by yellow...horrible! The white looked fine before the yellow went on, I wish we would have stopped then...... The yellow showed the framework and every glue line like a magnifying glass. Sanded off the yellow and did two more coats of Insignia White and picture perfect. Lemon yellow is one of the worst colors you can use on an older substrate because it is transparent and I believe that is due to different densities and porousities of an older weathered substrate.
Jim
spinner2
MEMBER
Montana
Once it is sprayed and catalyzed and flashed off the danger is gone.
Hardtailjohn
Registered User
Marion, MT
Hooligan, it's not that hard.. go to an automotive paint supply and buy a full body paint suit as well as either a full face mask with the breathing inlet or at least goggles that allow you to cover your eyes and nose. That, along with the full body paint suit (it will have a hood and elastic around arms and legs) will get you by. One other advantage of the suit is that you wont be getting dirt or lint from your clothes into your paint job, nor will you be ruining clothes. I run my booth at least an hour after the last paint is sprayed, along with the waterfall. I'm very touchy about any more exposure...I've already had too much, and I'm gonna tell you right now, it's not fun.
I've been painting for over 30 years (custom), and for a long time, figured I was young and bullet proof. Then I started to get sick....and about the time it got pretty unhandy to be sick all the time, I met a guy that manufactured all his own paints. He was teaching a class that I was taking on some custom use of his paint. He explained about the catalysts used in polyurethanes and the results of them being exposed to our body parts.
If you do nothing else, sit down with the paint and catalyst (or hardner...whatever you'd like to call it) and read what's in there!! IF you see anything like an isocyanide, you NEED a full suit and pressure, fresh air breathing system! This isn't something you're going to get around. It enters your body and stays there forever...so it's like filling a cup with water... for a while, you can pour water in there with nothing coming out. Then one day, the "cup runneth over".....and alot happens! You wont recover completely ever. Period. Been there, done that. Some people get by for a long time, others don't. Some have smaller effects than others...none are fun! I've personally seen a guy fall over and die from the exposure of one painting session when he wasn't properly protected...on the other hand, I've seen people go for years without any apparent serious problems. How much of a gambler are you?
Think not only of yourself as exposed, but also consider who else you expose by the fumes leaving the place you're painting.... people, pets, etc.
One thing we learned in that class was that the most dangerous time for exposure in the life of a catalyzed paint is when you're going to mix it. At that time, the catalyst molecules are "looking" for somewhere to be...and they're attracted to moisture...and we're made up of mostly moisture. Another bad time is while the paint is drying, as it's "gassing out" alot of the catalyst. It will enter first through your soft tissue..ears, nose, armpits, etc.... so spend a few bucks and get a full suit (I paid $40 for my last one) and cover up! Charcoal respirators will not protect you from an isocyanate or any of it's derivatives.
It's not that expensive to guard against problems, and it's sure alot cheaper in more ways than one, than a trip to the hospital or the damage you can do to your, or someone else's body, if you don't.
I'm a fan of the waterborne polyurethanes, as they contain water as a carrier, thus attracting the isocyanates to it, (and therefore being more "stable") instead of you. Do I still wear the full suit and breather? You betcha!! I also have a waterfall over the outlet of my paint booth exhaust fan, which takes care of any that makes it out of the booth when I'm working. It wasn't expensive...all it takes is a good sprinkler head positioned right.
Good luck, and please, be careful!
I've been painting for over 30 years (custom), and for a long time, figured I was young and bullet proof. Then I started to get sick....and about the time it got pretty unhandy to be sick all the time, I met a guy that manufactured all his own paints. He was teaching a class that I was taking on some custom use of his paint. He explained about the catalysts used in polyurethanes and the results of them being exposed to our body parts.
If you do nothing else, sit down with the paint and catalyst (or hardner...whatever you'd like to call it) and read what's in there!! IF you see anything like an isocyanide, you NEED a full suit and pressure, fresh air breathing system! This isn't something you're going to get around. It enters your body and stays there forever...so it's like filling a cup with water... for a while, you can pour water in there with nothing coming out. Then one day, the "cup runneth over".....and alot happens! You wont recover completely ever. Period. Been there, done that. Some people get by for a long time, others don't. Some have smaller effects than others...none are fun! I've personally seen a guy fall over and die from the exposure of one painting session when he wasn't properly protected...on the other hand, I've seen people go for years without any apparent serious problems. How much of a gambler are you?
One thing we learned in that class was that the most dangerous time for exposure in the life of a catalyzed paint is when you're going to mix it. At that time, the catalyst molecules are "looking" for somewhere to be...and they're attracted to moisture...and we're made up of mostly moisture. Another bad time is while the paint is drying, as it's "gassing out" alot of the catalyst. It will enter first through your soft tissue..ears, nose, armpits, etc.... so spend a few bucks and get a full suit (I paid $40 for my last one) and cover up! Charcoal respirators will not protect you from an isocyanate or any of it's derivatives.
It's not that expensive to guard against problems, and it's sure alot cheaper in more ways than one, than a trip to the hospital or the damage you can do to your, or someone else's body, if you don't.
I'm a fan of the waterborne polyurethanes, as they contain water as a carrier, thus attracting the isocyanates to it, (and therefore being more "stable") instead of you. Do I still wear the full suit and breather? You betcha!! I also have a waterfall over the outlet of my paint booth exhaust fan, which takes care of any that makes it out of the booth when I'm working. It wasn't expensive...all it takes is a good sprinkler head positioned right.
Good luck, and please, be careful!
Great reply John! Just the information I was looking for. I suggest that everyone that paints read and heed not only for their own health but for the health of others that may be exposed to the painting process.
When the time comes for me to do my own painting the waterborne polyurethane will be the system I use along with the full suit and breather.
Thanks again.
Jim
Oh yeah! Use a waterfall...just googled it. It is not just all about me.
When the time comes for me to do my own painting the waterborne polyurethane will be the system I use along with the full suit and breather.
Thanks again.
Jim
Oh yeah! Use a waterfall...just googled it. It is not just all about me.
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Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
I was just informed by someone who I have always considered well-informed that charcoal filters do, in fact, catch isocyanates.....and that the reason they are not advertised as such is that you don't know when they're full and won't do it anymore.
I had never heard this in 25 years of being in this business. All news. He says 3M is developing a unit that will have a "counter" and you can replace it after a certain number of "cycles".
...having a hard time believing it, for sure! D
I had never heard this in 25 years of being in this business. All news. He says 3M is developing a unit that will have a "counter" and you can replace it after a certain number of "cycles".
...having a hard time believing it, for sure! D
sierra bravo
Registered User
That's good to know. I was going to comment on Mike's bad respirator choice but I was too busy smoking cigarettes and eating bacon.
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
How many packs a day........
.....of bacon?
.....of bacon?
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
NEVER EVER, REDO DOPE OVER OLD DOPE... it probably will NOT be bonded well..... dope bonds by COHESION (MELTING IN) paint is by(ADHESION, sticking to).....
aerothane repairs GREAT, and will be THE SAME COLOR/SHADE years later, where as DOPE will be some FADED VARIANT of its original and NOT MATCH!!!
you wipe the snow/ice off a re-doped plane and usually take some of the new dope with it... its that bad...
supercrow
FRIEND
Smith Pond near Millinocket, Me
aerothane over dope
Don't let concerns over aerothane repair stop you from using it. Easy to repair, and I've done lots of it. I like the sound of an effective charcoal respirator, but don't see how you can use it under a hood without fogging up? You must wear a hood with this material. Don't cheat guy's, it's not worth it. Hardtail John hit it right on the head. I've been using all those chemicals for years, and I may die of being exposed to something terrible at some point, but it won't be for lack of effort in wearing protective gearwhile spraying aerothane. I don't see what the resistance is to gearing up; once you buy the equipment and get used to using it, it's like any other good habit and you won't even think about it. If you really think you are OK to use it without protection for "just a little bit", you are playing russian roulette; be safe people, and good luck on your projects.
Don't let concerns over aerothane repair stop you from using it. Easy to repair, and I've done lots of it. I like the sound of an effective charcoal respirator, but don't see how you can use it under a hood without fogging up? You must wear a hood with this material. Don't cheat guy's, it's not worth it. Hardtail John hit it right on the head. I've been using all those chemicals for years, and I may die of being exposed to something terrible at some point, but it won't be for lack of effort in wearing protective gearwhile spraying aerothane. I don't see what the resistance is to gearing up; once you buy the equipment and get used to using it, it's like any other good habit and you won't even think about it. If you really think you are OK to use it without protection for "just a little bit", you are playing russian roulette; be safe people, and good luck on your projects.
cruiser
Registered User
South Glens Falls, NY
As I recall from respirator fit class in my previous life charcoal filters have an 8 hour life after opening the plastic, apparently they are just naturally absorbent. A simple google search of Isocyanates/charcoal respirator answers a lot of questions. Jim
sierra bravo
Registered User
Geez, guys, why doesn't somebody just post the Aero-Thane MSDS? I'd link it but PolyFiber doesn't provide MSDS sheets on-line. Any reseller is required to provide one on request. Surely you professionals must keep one around in your MSDS binder?
Imron's MSDS states that when using a isocyanate activator a positive pressure supplied air mask must be worn during mixing through application and until all vapors are exhausted. IF the activator does not contain isocyanates a charcoal mask may be used. There is no requirement for a hood, just eye protection to protect from splash. Coveralls are recommended but not required, again for splash protection. If you prefer pressure hoods and tyvek suits you're free to wear them but full-time professional shops are not required to utilize them. I'd expect Aero-Thane's MSDS to be similar.
Web chatter includes lots of misinformation. Look to a product's MSDS if you want to know the facts. As a point of interest, Stewart's System's MSDS requires an OSHA compliant particle mask in conjunction with a full or half hood.
Imron's MSDS states that when using a isocyanate activator a positive pressure supplied air mask must be worn during mixing through application and until all vapors are exhausted. IF the activator does not contain isocyanates a charcoal mask may be used. There is no requirement for a hood, just eye protection to protect from splash. Coveralls are recommended but not required, again for splash protection. If you prefer pressure hoods and tyvek suits you're free to wear them but full-time professional shops are not required to utilize them. I'd expect Aero-Thane's MSDS to be similar.
Web chatter includes lots of misinformation. Look to a product's MSDS if you want to know the facts. As a point of interest, Stewart's System's MSDS requires an OSHA compliant particle mask in conjunction with a full or half hood.
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mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
I never wear hood/suit, but If I am thinking, I will put a paper towel over top of my head to keep the paint from sticking in my hair.... you'd be amazed how many times I was NOT thinking and had to relearn that lesson...
also, make sure if you wear glasses that they are GLASS lenses so you can use thinner to clean lenses off(plastic lenses will melt), or wear goggles over them
also, make sure if you wear glasses that they are GLASS lenses so you can use thinner to clean lenses off(plastic lenses will melt), or wear goggles over them
Exactly my experience. Rejuvinated the wings and in one year it looked like the birds were picking through the finish. Then the dope started coming off like peeling tape from a roll. It was ugly and I was out a wad of cash.
How do you know how much solvent to use to get the "melting in", you speak of? I have questioned several mechanics before I chose Aerothane and they said; "Well they just did not use enough solvent to bond the new dope with the old." Apparently there is not a formula?
" Once bitten, twice shy."
Jim
Hardtailjohn
Registered User
Marion, MT
Geez....I guess I'm not professional...nor are any of the shops I've worked in. If that's the case, I can show ya plenty of " full-time professional shops" that don't require anything...even ones that shot Imron for years. I guess it's on YOUR consciense if someone gets exposed to that and you are saying it's no big deal... MY consciense says when I know the facts, and have the information, that I need to share that...not a bunch of mis-information telling someone not to wear protective gear. Sure it's not "required"... but is it smart?
I know if I hear of someone getting sick or even dieing from exposure, I can sleep at night, knowing I told them what I've learned, both the easy way as well as the hard way. What they do with it from there is their own business. I'm a firm believer that if you don't want to wear anything, it's your right to not wear anything... but I don't think it's at all smart to downplay safety, and that's coming from the other end of the exposure. It amazes me when people want to quote an MSDS and think it's all ya need to know... guess again. That's the minimum that they had to do to get by. When I get FACTS from a guy that manufactures ALL his own polyurethane components, I'll go by that. He was in it for the long run...not a suit getting a salary.
'Nuff said by me...
sierra bravo
Registered User
My comments were not directed at you but were general in nature and I stand by them. If a guy browses this thread he'll see advice for shooting urethane paint with equipment that varies from a charcoal mask to a full suit with pressure mask. What should he do to determine what's what? The best thing is to refer to the recognized industry standard publication, the MSDS, and use those guidelines as the benchmark for personal safety. After all, those standards are provided by manufacturers to establish acceptable levels of exposure for professionals that use their products on a 40 hour per week basis. An occasional painter can feel pretty good about that. And for the professional shops? Assuming they operate with staffs that qualify for OSHA jurisdiction? The MSDS is the law.
