Zlin Savage Norden
- Thread starter jetcat11
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Rob, This is an example of what you said. Notice how the engine thrust line of this airplane is set just above the wing. This is ideal for accelerating a wide swath of air over the upper surface of the wing.
When ready for departure with the brakes on, the flaps down and a brisk wind, applying full power provides enough lift on the wing to extend the shock struts to their full extension. Without rolling a wheel.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
Which surely means that all that thrust that is producing lift is not available for acceleration. If producing static lift was so advantageous why do the hot STOL pilots delay flap extension until rotation? Answer - they minimize drag to get maximum acceleration to rotate speed and then, and only then, do they increase lift.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I try to let other pilots determine what they think is the best procedure for them in any type of event.
For your information. I have flown the airplane shown in the picture of post #63 and others of the same identical type in numerous takeoff contests and have never been beat by anyone, including a stripped down PA-18 flown by a very capable pilot. There are several other members here who have witnessed those events. Other pilots have gone out of their way to run against me. All of them have failed.
So to answer your question, you do what works for you and I'll do what works best for me.
Rob
Registered User
AZ06
That is an interesting observation. And here I thought it was a simple case of monkey see - monkey do.
Have you ever flown in a breeze enough to rotate from a standstill? Would you still leave the flaps stowed and go blistering down the strip?
Take care, Rob
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
If shortest takeoff was achieved by lowering flaps at rotate speed then wouldn't flap go down at zero speed in this case? After all, you are saying rotate speed is zero.
It could well be monkey see - monkey do. I have no aspiration to be a STOL winner and I set my flaps before setting the power.
Next time you take off with your usual flap setting get to a speed about 5-10 mph lower than your normal rotation speed and pull full flaps. The plane will leap into the air at a flatter than normal attitude. It’s SOP if you find yourself needing to take off shorter than normal. Or you can set full flaps from the start. That makes lifting the tail easier, too. Expect to apply forward stick to maintain airspeed. Full flap takeoffs are very useful providing you have effective flaps and enough power.
Rob
Registered User
AZ06
My apologies, My last post was a poor attempt at poking fun.
I am probably somewhere between yourself and SB in a typical flap setting for T/O. I mostly always set some flaps in ( cub or Cessna type airplane) because I am not built like an orangoutang, but always drop all it takes to pry loose from mother earth as I rotate. Thumb never leaves the button, because I am milking them back off as soon as it will take it, and because if I left the ground, my intentions are to get somewhere, that happens better with the flaps gone.
In a work plane I always set 'some' because there is nothing worse than nearing the end of the strip take off only to discover the flap motor quit on the last landing. Having said that, in the type I fly for work, it has been my experience that as soon as the tail flies, you can tab down the rest of the flaps while nudging back on the stick, and it will leave the ground. This will be too slow to try and climb out GA or Airline style, so you will need to roll the nose over and pick up some steam before you get too excited about climbing anywhere. But that is an entirely different ball game than where this thread started.
Take care,Rob
I finally got some hands on time with the Norden and let me tell you it does not disappoint!
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I bet this is a really nice plane! You’re brave to put it on here tho, cause there are some haters here. Not all, but some are loud, cynical, cry babies. Full of, “I” this and that. Lots of babies in the sand box, “my toy is better” blah blah. Nice to see some innovations like what we see here in this cub!
wireweinie
FOUNDER
Palmer, AK
I'm not a fan of the panel either. Just the way it is.
What can you tell me about that prop? Will it go full feather? Reverse? How is it controlled?
Web
What can you tell me about that prop? Will it go full feather? Reverse? How is it controlled?
Web
Other then pictures, I’ve not seen a Mackey Aircraft in person so I’ve no way of verifying wether or not your assessment of “innovation” is correct. Or not. A “scale” or not, how would I know?
This particular cub looks like it has some innovations in comparison to the stock PA-18 as well as some others I’m familiar with like Legend and CC. …”an innovation most bush fliers wouldn’t want.” Didn’t know the bushpilot’s association voted you to decide what we want. Common of some people- “well now if it were me I’d …. “. It’s like a pilot dissing the flap lever location in a particular aircraft one time- thing is he’d never sat in the seat before. Wam with an opinion but never actually been in the seat.
Shoot, I think it’s a neat cub with cool concepts. I’m not a rotax guy so that’s my first bias. If there where as many mechanics in my area that were familiar with a rotax engine like they were with a legacy engine my attitude might change.
To just go out and play….looks like the nuts.
Do I think enough Nordens will end up over here to change peoples perceptions, no.
Bill Camino, who’s a dealer, talked highly of the cub. He just needs more to come across the ocean.
I can get about any -18 part in a day. Probably can’t for a Norden
To just go out and play….looks like the nuts.
Do I think enough Nordens will end up over here to change peoples perceptions, no.
Bill Camino, who’s a dealer, talked highly of the cub. He just needs more to come across the ocean.
I can get about any -18 part in a day. Probably can’t for a Norden
Crash Jr.
Registered User
Anchorage, AK
THANK YOU...
It's not innovation it's just the flavor of the week. They did this with the Shock Cub in 2016 when storch gear and big shocks were all the rage. Now that double slotted flaps and slats are the "in" mods they go that route. PSTOL copy flaps and a direct copy of Carbon Concepts' electric slats.
That being said I'm sure it's a fun to fly little plane. Not the most practical for any "serious" use but a fun toy.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
I think that's exactly what I thought of the J3 when I first flew one.
???? Pretty sure both the SQ and the Shock Cub do, indeed, have slats....
I don't understand why you feel the need to defend the Norden so strongly. Just let its performance speak for itself. I think its a cool plane, and I'm sure it's a blast to fly. Time will tell if it fills a niche, or if it just the flavor of the week.
Slots are fixed. Slats are variable. My Cub has slats. They operate with air pressure. Open when needed, closed when not. They’re incredible. Flying a 2000# plane with full control authority at <30 mph is pretty fun.
What are the specs for wing loading and power loading for the Norden? What’s it’s gross weight? Useful load? I’d be interested in how those numbers compare to Supercubs, Carbon Cubs, and Backcountry Cubs.
What are the specs for wing loading and power loading for the Norden? What’s it’s gross weight? Useful load? I’d be interested in how those numbers compare to Supercubs, Carbon Cubs, and Backcountry Cubs.
I glanced at Zlin’s website. Lots of marketing-based talk and nothing technical. Wingspan? Wing area? Absent. They clearly state it’s built for the LSA market. That puts it into a very limited market as most pilots aren’t interested in that segment. They say they’ll test it with a 300hp Edge motor next year. So it’ll compete directly with planes like the Highlander. There’s plane that demonstrates fabulous performance. I look forward to seeing how the Norden stacks up against a known entity. But at the end of the day it’s mild curiosity. That segment doesn’t offer enough useful load for me to consider owning one, and I suspect that statement applies to many guys on this website.
I made a post a couple of years ago with wing and power loading. For comparison-
I ran lots of PL and WL numbers when I was deciding what plane to build and why. These are derived from manufacturer's specs. The only honest empty weight report is by BCSC.
Just SS XL wing loading empty- 6.8
gross- 11.75
power loading empty- 5.0
gross- 8.16
Carbon Cub FX3 WL empty- 5.23
gross- 10.84
power loading empty- 4.83
gross- 10.02
BCSC Rev 2 WL Empty- 6.47
gross- 10.7
power loading empty- 6.17
gross- 10.2
Stock Supercub 1100#/1750# @150hp
WL empty- 6.16
gross- 9.8
PL empty- 7.66
gross- 11.66
For grins, how does my own 180 stack up?
WL- 10.34 empty
18.33 gross
PL 6.54 empty
11.6 gross.
Crash Jr.
Registered User
Anchorage, AK
It already has been copied...by the Norden. SQ's did it a long time ago, Just Aircraft Super STOL after that, the Helio very long ago....
The only "innovation" is that the slats are electrically controlled. Not to get into it again but that's not exactly ground breaking from an aerodynamic standpoint. Whether the slats are automatic, electric, spring loaded, always deployed...they all do the same thing. The deployable slats might cruise faster when they're not deployed but that's the only slight advantage. Carbon Concepts made and tested electric deployable slats along with an electric servo operated double slotted flap several years ago. There's a backstory there involving Zlin but I'll leave that alone.
I'd also like to point out that you've been excited about this plane since before you ever stepped foot in one. I doubt that no matter how it flew or looked or what features you would have been impressed with it. How many hours do you have in a Norden now to evaluate it and what other planes have you flow to compare it to?
You're not wrong. The J3 is a toy as well. I'm not knocking this thing points for being a fun to fly toy. Just don't show me the little PA-11 size bag in the back of the Norden and tell me it's for more than cruising around the patch and playing on sand bars. The dash looks like a SeaDoo jet ski and it's probably just as fun and just as useful.
