Why don't we talk about accidents?

[Eddie Foy]

Willie,

Where did you get the notion that I think pilots are never wrong? History implies some degree of pilot error. At this point we dont know if the blame is to be laid on one, both, or none. Not enough data. All we know for sure is that two planes collided and three people are dead.

One "eye witness" reported that they took off together from T31. The point I was trying to make is that it is better to wait for all the data before throwing stones.

How do you know that they didnt communicate?

Did you ever wonder why "hearsay" is not allowed in court?

The name is Eddie, not Lefoy.

 

[GeeBee]

I think rather than talk about a specific accident, we should talk about how the accidents fit into trends. This latest mid air is one more in an alarming trend of mid airs at uncontrolled airports. To be sure there are inherent risks at an uncontrolled airport and what we need to talk about is how to minimize those risks. I will throw out a couple thoughts.

While we can (and have) talk(ed) about the vital role of radio communication, the very nature of an uncontrolled field says non radio aircraft are equal access partners. What can be done to make the situation safer?

One thing I find is the variability of pattern altitudes. If you look at the Airport Directory you see a lot of variability from 700' to 1000'. Should pattern altitudes be standardized unless required for terrain or noise? Not every one surveys the AD before arrival, should standard pattern altitude be easier to discern?

There seems to be a lot of "low wing" versus "high wing" problems. What can be emphasized to minimize this risk

Except for instrument approaches, should straight in approach be banned?

I would welcome your thoughts and views on major risk points and methods of mitigation.

 

[txpacer]

Sounds like potential discussion topics for flight reviews. Mandating a particular solution might not achieve much, as that solution is unlikely to fit well in all situations. I don't see banning straight-in approaches as being feasible. However, it should be emphasized that anyone doing a straight-in or instrument approach in a fast plane needs to be especially aware of what is ahead, with particular attention to the blind spots of that plane.

More collisions happen at uncontrolled airports, but they still happen at towered ones. Don't offload your responsibilities to someone on the ground. Maintain vigilance.

 

[GeeBee]

Certainly there are and will continue to be collisions at controlled fields. I posted one that occurred at San Diego's Brown Field. I myself have had controller's turn traffic into me and had to take evasive action. However, the statistics show that collisions in the airport area occur overwhelmingly at uncontrolled fields. I believe in working on the big problems first. Right now collisions at uncontrolled fields and loss of control are the two biggies.

I too don't believe in a lot of mandates, however I do believe in providing a modicum of predictability. Predictability seems lacking in uncontrolled operations.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/12/fatal-accident-occurred-december-31.html

Some reported observations later in the document. High wing<>low wing aircraft apparently.

GAP

 

[flylowslow]

I saw a poor cub on its back down near Vicksburg. I hope he is ok. Be careful out there.

 

[skywagon8a]

Some reported observations later in the document. High wing<>low wing aircraft apparently.

GAP

High wing<>low wing aircraft scenario. Long ago I was riding left seat in a Cherokee instructing a flight instructor student at a large busy NORDO airport. We were doing TO & landings remaining in the pattern. As we completed the turn from base to final at low altitude I spotted part of the left wing of a Seabee appearing just ahead of the Cherokee's left wing. We slid over to the left landing on the grass with the Seabee landing on the pavement beside us. The school's chief instructor was standing at the side of the runway watching the whole scenario taking place. The Seabee had flown straight in on a long low final blending in with the terrain. The Cherokee's low wing had blocked our view of the Seabee. The Seabee's high wing is behind the pilot so he SHOULD have been able to see us. He told the chief that he didn't see us. The end result is no damage was done. BUT it COULD have been a pile of smoking pieces.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

News about the recent location and rescue of the C-180 occupants west of Anchorage, AK. Interesting how the search team focused their efforts:

http://generalaviationnews.com/2017/02/06/another-cap-save/

GAP

 

[Farmboy]

News about the recent location and rescue of the C-180 occupants west of Anchorage, AK. Interesting how the search team focused their efforts:

http://generalaviationnews.com/2017/02/06/another-cap-save/

GAP

So if I am reading this accurately, the initial ELT data was almost worthless aside from announcing itself.
~ So then the first team sorted through the radar tracks based upon departure and anticipated flight route.
~ When that radar track ended, they transferred the data to the cellular team which I am assuming searched from the track's end outward looking for cell tower pings off the occupants cell phone numbers??
~ But then they got another ELT "track" that led them to the crash site... ?

Can someone define the "search only" track references, and confirm that cell phone team was looking for recorded pings from the occupants cell phones? I assume those are triangulated similar to an ELT signal?

Thanks,
Peter

Edit : Found this CAP presentation that provides some interesting info on how they analyze cell data.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/DO09__2014_National_Conf__Cellular__B9AD9A327EDCC.pdf

 

[mike mcs repair]

So if I am reading this accurately, the initial ELT data was almost worthless aside from announcing itself...
Thanks,
Peter

old style 121.5 ELT.... no data... no satellite tracking them anymore.... useless

 

[Carey Gray]

The 121.5 signal was used to locate the Porter accident after the 406 signal quit.
I'm not saying it's better, but that's what worked this time. The ELT transmitted both frequencies.
What if David had survived the crash and the 406 quit transmitting after 24 hours, the way it's designed to do.
I really miss my flying, motorcycle riding, road trip, adventure loving buddy and rarely an hour goes by that I don't wonder what drove the decision making that day.

 

[King Brown]

I think we all talk about accidents, some with more discretion than others. The official accident reports are so discouraging I prefer to leave them there. Discouraging because so many are caused by complacency and pilot error. The truly puzzling accidents I discuss with my son, a retired corporate chief pilot, but anything more than that only beats me up.

 

[Eddie Foy]

Pete,
What is a NORDO airport?

 

[eskflyer]

No tower or FSS on field for radio contact. NORDO < NO RADIO.

 

[Eddie Foy]

No tower or FSS on field for radio contact. NORDO < NO RADIO.

I never heard it described as that. To me, NORDO, means radio out. Nothing in the event Pete described precluded regular radio position reports.

From Wikipedia:

In North American aviation, a NORDO aircraft is an aircraft flying without a radio. While sometimes used to denote small general aviation aircraft that are not equipped with a radio, the term is more commonly applied to aircraft that have experienced a radio failure while flying.
The term originates from the 5-character uppercase abbreviated notation "NORDO" displayed on controllers' radar scopes when an aircraft transmits the "radio failure" code on its transponder. An alternate explanation is that "NO RDO" was the standard note made on maintenance and equipment sheets used in military aviation, starting in the 1930s, as a code to identify planes which needed radio repairs or were not equipped with radios. The term has made its way into standard aviation jargon, used as an adjective or a noun to describe an aircraft without a radio, even among pilots and others who are not air traffic controllers.

 

[skywagon8a]

Things have changed a bit since the early 60s Eddie. In those days a lot of planes, that had radios, still had coffee grinders. Now I suppose that you are going to ask me what a "coffee grinder" radio is? The good ones even had "whistle stop tuning". :lol:

 

[Eddie Foy]

Pete,
I watched "Island in the Sky"

What is a NORDO airport?

 

[Eddie Foy]

Mike,
The Spec requires that the 406 signal last a minimum of 24 hours. The actual time will depend on the state of charge of the battery at start and the temp.

 

[eskflyer]

Eddie,
I agree with you , as to the Meaning of "NORDO". I think the modern kids have misused it at airports that are not "CONTROLLED " and just think they are so called "NORDO" and can do whatever they want. who needs to call that your 3 to the N, 2000 feet descending planning cross midfield left traffic 25.

 

[skywagon8a]

Pete,
I watched "Island in the Sky"

What is a NORDO airport?

NORaDiO ​No tower, no talkee.

 

[Eddie Foy]

Would that be an uncontrolled airport? Are the planes there NORDO also?

 

[eskflyer]

lol. In todays world I really hope not , way to many birds moving around to not have time for a quick position report. However I do love a bird that is non electric and keep that head on a swivel. Hand helds are cheap compared to a midair and loss of life.

 

[hotrod180]

http://generalaviationnews.com/2017/02/06/another-cap-save/

This linked story references searching along the route of the missing airplane's "planned flight", but doesn't actually say whether an official flight plan was filed. Maybe they got their destination info from family members, a comment made to a FSS or control tower, or ?

I'm curious as to how many people here actually file official flight plans?
I rarely do so. Probably dumb of me, since I live alone and
so my being reported as overdue on a flight might take days.

 

[hotrod180]

....I really miss my flying, motorcycle riding, road trip, adventure loving buddy and rarely an hour goes by that I don't wonder what drove the decision making that day.

I feel your pain, my friend.
We had a fatal crash up here about a month ago, a C182 out of Pt Angeles.
Pilot & three pax (including two little kids) on board.
By all accounts, it looked to be a VFR-into-IMC situation.
I'd only met the guy once, not long before, but some other people around here knew him well.
I'm sure all his pilots friends are wondering what he was thinking also.

 

[cubdriver2]

This linked story references searching along the route of the missing airplane's "planned flight", but doesn't actually say whether an official flight plan was filed. Maybe they got their destination info from family members, a comment made to a FSS or control tower, or ?

I'm curious as to how many people here actually file official flight plans?
I rarely do so. Probably dumb of me, since I live alone and
so my being reported as overdue on a flight might take days.

In 4000 hrs I have only done it a couple times to get in and out of Canada

Glenn

 

[BC12D-4-85]

Despite the two articles linked above I can't pretend to fully understand the process the rescue folks undertook to locate the C-180 and occupants. Maybe it'll eventually be time-lined out better as that would help others faced with a similar event and search.

Likely a combination of departure time, local, Center, or military radar (primary or transponder target)?, cell tower triangulation or digital delay of a signal one or more devices, prior flight habits, and ELT hits led to the final location. The potential is there for any or all when within signal coverage.

A flight plan? Ok if updated with route changes and assuming coms are possible. Same for talking to FSS or those following the aircraft via radar. Lots of airborne aircraft to call too.

Will make a good story if and when it's told. I hope they recover the Cessna and fly it again.

GAP

 

[Farmboy]

.

Will make a good story if and when it's told. I hope they recover the Cessna and fly it again.

GAP

its been recovered.
Not sure if the posters permissions show it publicly, but here are links to extraction videos.


https://instagram.com/p/BQRf7LCBgTc/

https://instagram.com/p/BQSCJPPhkGo/

 

[BC12D-4-85]

Good news and links to pics! Spoiler wing covers and whatever to keep it behaving in flight. Snow level at the strip hopefully helped minimize frame and engine damage. Now to get that 180 back flying...it's experienced.

GAP

 

[King Brown]

A step back, my wind-powered Lear LTRA-6 for flying "the beam." That was really something!

 

[mike mcs repair]

so strange anymore how they don't just patch planes up and ferry them out....

helicopter rides have gotten cheap or something...

didn't see great pics of damage... but looked easy to make flyable same day with a few patches....

while upside down, jump on wing, bolt on external patch to bottom of spar, put skis on, cables unhooked, flip it over.. hook cables up.. put a prop on if needed... go...