Why don't we talk about accidents?

[Steve Pierce]

Around here, lately, some flight school types have been ending calls on CTAF with "last call", as in "Cessna 123 departing traffic to the north, last call.". One day I heard one plane say "last call" three times. I just respond, "One bourbon!"

I can hear you saying that.

When I hear "traffic in the area please advise" I tell them there are 3 Cubs in the pattern without radios, fly the pattern and follow them in.

Printed and put that from the AIM on a jet jockeys windshield once. Never heard it again.

 

[sj]

Around here, lately, some flight school types have been ending calls on CTAF with "last call", as in "Cessna 123 departing traffic to the north, last call.". One day I heard one plane say "last call" three times. I just respond, "One bourbon!"

Why even say, "Last Call"? Do they switch back to Sirius XM or something?

sj

 

[Eddie Foy]

I just respond, "One bourbon!"

One Bourbon, one Scotch, one Beer!

 

[aktango58]

One Bourbon, one Scotch, one Beer!

I was thinking that exact thing!

 

[Eddie Foy]

I was thinking that exact thing!

Now that is scary!

 

[DENNY]

We have a nonstandard runway pattern at Birchwood, it is not that uncommon to have to ask which runway is being used do to conditions. In the afternoon people will land with a tailwind to avoid landing into the sun. We also have pilots that will depart with tailwind to avoid taxiing runway length on bushwheels, or from midfield due to the above reasons. Runways are 020 RL and 200 RL just to help add to the confusion. New guys don't pick up on the fact that pilots are calling two different runways so sometimes you have to throw out the what runway is active line to get them all the same direction or to hold for a quick switch. I would never use the "traffic in area please advise" line myself. Because I think "where is everybody at" actually means what I say TELL ME WHERE YOU ARE AT. The bottom line is I don't give a rats ass how you say it!! However you do it, communicate your intentions and understand what the other aircraft are doing. If you don't say something.
DENNY

 

[cubdriver2]

We have a nonstandard runway pattern at Birchwood, it is not that uncommon to have to ask which runway is being used do to conditions. In the afternoon people will land with a tailwind to avoid landing into the sun. We also have pilots that will depart with tailwind to avoid taxiing runway length on bushwheels, or from midfield due to the above reasons. Runways are 020 RL and 200 RL just to help add to the confusion. New guys don't pick up on the fact that pilots are calling two different runways so sometimes you have to throw out the what runway is active line to get them all the same direction or to hold for a quick switch. I would never use the "traffic in area please advise" line myself. Because I think "where is everybody at" actually means what I say TELL ME WHERE YOU ARE AT. The bottom line is I don't give a rats ass how you say it!! However you do it, communicate your intentions and understand what the other aircraft are doing. If you don't say something.
DENNY

Cooperstown is the exact same layout, pattern on East side and runways 02 or 20. I don't use 02 or 20, I announce landing North or South.
I would say landing 02 to the North or 20 to the South but I'm dyslexic and some days it might sound very confusing

Glenn

 

[sj]

We have a nonstandard runway pattern at Birchwood, it is not that uncommon to have to ask which runway is being used do to conditions. In the afternoon people will land with a tailwind to avoid landing into the sun. We also have pilots that will depart with tailwind to avoid taxiing runway length on bushwheels, or from midfield due to the above reasons. Runways are 020 RL and 200 RL just to help add to the confusion. New guys don't pick up on the fact that pilots are calling two different runways so sometimes you have to throw out the what runway is active line to get them all the same direction or to hold for a quick switch. I would never use the "traffic in area please advise" line myself. Because I think "where is everybody at" actually means what I say TELL ME WHERE YOU ARE AT. The bottom line is I don't give a rats ass how you say it!! However you do it, communicate your intentions and understand what the other aircraft are doing. If you don't say something.
DENNY

Denny,

Our training (and the aim) tells us to announce our positions. My gripe about "asking who is out there" is that this further makes people complacent about making traffic announcements. They feel they can just fly around until somebody "asks". This is backwards of how the system is supposed to work.

sj

 

[DENNY]

SJ
I understand and wholeheartedly agree if it all works right you should hear everyone as they enter the pattern and it usually works well. We end up with a lot of training aircraft, helicopter traffic, 747 (local pilot schools) pattern guys. and the side in bush guys. Somedays I just can't spot or keep track of them all. They may be running a extremely slow/long pattern. Very common for the helicopter guys to be left downwind for 200 L while I am right downwind for 200 L. I am not one for calling every leg by any means, but I think it is more dangerous to enter or be in the pattern without knowing where everyone is. What I am trying to get at for the new guys is don't just guess where the other aircraft are. If you don't KNOW than ask, and be very straight forward about it.
DENNY

 

[Dave Calkins]

A longtime aviator in SW Alaska uses that dorky "anyone please advise". Some of you know him. I am not gonna correct him and his lifetime of doing it ALL in Alaska aviation.

 

[DENNY]

Another point to consider is ASOS and wind sock will lie!! I was at Valdes a few years back when it was blowing about 20kts from both ends of the field. ASOS called for 20 from the water but the other end had 20 towards the sea. I did not look at the sock as I came over the numbers but the plane did not want to stop flying. I had registered to compete in the STOL event and could not even get my plane down at midfield (that is embarrassing!!). The plane behind me ground looped. If you wait a few weeks after someone has bent a plane on landing and ask them they will say they knew they had a problem before they landed but went for it anyway. In my case I just flew along until the plane felt happy with landing. If it don't feel/look/smell right than go around.
DENNY

 

[Ralf]

I feel left out. I don't have a radio in my Cub.

 

[aktango58]

I feel left out. I don't have a radio in my Cub.

You can still make the calls, just be prepared for us to ignore you!:lol:

 

[stewartb]

This thread started because of a Pilatus Porter accident in Alaska. With due respect I still wonder what happened that day to make an experienced pilot in a capable aircraft circle down into clouds that were lower than the 9000' plus peaks in the area when 25 miles west there were no mountains? I've been in that area in crappy weather and my "out" was to go to McGrath if necessary, away from mountains. I have no criticism of the pilot and have nothing but sympathy for his survivors but still hope to reconcile the events of a flight that at face value does not make sense.

 

[DavePA11]

I just quote them chapter and verse from the AIM...




View attachment 29359

Watching video with instructor using this phrase while reading this post. First 6 seconds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ct3KhsFyFE

 

[Dave Calkins]

Watching video with instructor using this phrase while reading this post. First 6 seconds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ct3KhsFyFE

he got an immediate response from another pilot. Maybe in that area it is common usage.

Another odd one.....i was taught on first call to a tower to identify myself and wait to be addressed. This is common everywhere I ever went.

But recently I was in a zone where I was angrily "corrected" by the tower to identify, give location, and request on the first call.

Any thoughts or references from you bookish types??

 

[n40ff]

I was always taught to ID, location and intent on first call. Same as I did today when calling on Unicom, Acroduster 22JM, 5 miles S. for landing @ Mexico Farm.

I admit to being rusty. I used a radio for the first time in 35 years 3 weeks ago.

Jack

 

[Eddie Foy]

he got an immediate response from another pilot. Maybe in that area it is common usage.

Another odd one.....i was taught on first call to a tower to identify myself and wait to be addressed. This is common everywhere I ever went.

But recently I was in a zone where I was angrily "corrected" by the tower to identify, give location, and request on the first call.

Any thoughts or references from you bookish types??

My vote is for the tower.

 

[mvivion]

he got an immediate response from another pilot. Maybe in that area it is common usage.

Another odd one.....i was taught on first call to a tower to identify myself and wait to be addressed. This is common everywhere I ever went.

But recently I was in a zone where I was angrily "corrected" by the tower to identify, give location, and request on the first call.

Any thoughts or references from you bookish types??

Dave,

From the AIM, here's the recommended format for first call up:


) Name of the facility being called;
(b) Your full aircraft identification as filed in
the flight plan or as discussed in paragraph 4−2−4,
Aircraft Call Signs;
(c) When operating on an airport surface,
state your position.
(d) The type of message to follow or your
request if it is short; and
(e) The word “Over” if required.
EXAMPLE−
1. “New York Radio, Mooney Three One One Echo.”
2. “Columbia Ground, Cessna Three One Six Zero
Foxtrot, south ramp, I−F−R Memphis.”
3. “Miami Center, Baron Five Six Three Hotel, request
V−F−R traffic advisories

In busy airspace you won't make any friends if you call up with just tail number then wait.....

MTV

 

[hotrod180]

I feel the opposite. My usual enroute ATC encounters are with a Naval Air Station--
normally I call up with aircraft type & tail number, location, and intent or request.
But if it's busy, I just state type & tail number & wait for them to respond.

Towered airports, have always (or almost always) given the full spiel on initial call-up.

 

[hotrod180]

"In busy airspace you won't make any friends if you call up with just tail number then wait....."
In my limited experience, the opposite is often true.
My usual enroute ATC encounters are with a local Naval Air Station--
normally I call up with aircraft type & tail number, location, and intent or request.
But if it's real busy, I just state type & tail number & "request", then wait for them to respond--
otherwise, they will often just ignore the calling aircraft.

With towered airports, I have always (or almost always) given the full spiel on initial call-up,
and it hasn't ever seemed to be a problem.

 

[aktango58]

Who you are talking to

Who you are

Where you are

What you want to do

Clearance delivery can be different sometimes I have noticed, and flight service calls. For towers- the above works like a charm.

 

[Dave Calkins]

Well, now we have identified the "bookish" types.

At a busy zone like Lake Hood It often occurs that the long-spiel first calls step on other radio calls. I hate being"that guy".

Not arguin', just trying to be a sensible and sensitive participant. D

 

[mvivion]

Well, Dave, us bookish types also listen up before we transmit, and we keep our transmissions SHORT and to the point. In busy airspace, getting stepped on or stepping on someone else's transmission is just part of life in the big city.

And, Hotrod, while the AIM is not regulatory, the procedures therein are considered "good practice" by the FAA.

MTV

 

[sj]

Not completely on topic, but this reminds of overhearing one of my flight instructor mentors on the radio while I was doing instrument work on approach with a student. Charlie has a friendly Missouri accent.

Charlie: "Kansas City Approach, N12345 eight east of the MCI vor would like to enter the class B and do one landing at KMCI for training purposes - we have atis Zulu " (MCI is the "big" airport here).

Approach: "N12345, we cannot accommodate your request at this time"

Charlie: "Kansas City Approach, N12345, I understand you are very busy. We are going to circle right here and monitor the frequency until you are able to accommodate us"

Approach: " ** big sigh ** N12345, fly heading 270 vectors for visual approach to runway 19-L"



sj

 

[Gordon Misch]

Steve, send that one to AvWeb for their "Short Final" piece.

 

[Dave Calkins]

Stepping on someone and having to "re-do" the big spiel is why I see it the way I was taught in 1986 and operate at Hood in the common era.

I operate the other way at that other zone because the tower controller is VERY accommodating to ops in his zone and would never pull that crap like KC Approach in SJ's example above. He is by the book, which means the AIM I suppose.

Just funnin about the "bookish" types guys.

 

[Gordon Misch]

Near or under the Seattle Class B I like to use flight following. The most common initial call I hear, that works well around here, is "Seattle Approach, Cub xxx VFR request.". That way they know what's coming, but also know it isn't a huge rush. If they're too busy at the moment I'll get a "Stand by", which is just fine. For a tower the AIM format is already brief.

 

[OLDCROWE]

Near or under the Seattle Class B I like to use flight following. The most common initial call I hear, that works well around here, is "Seattle Approach, Cub xxx VFR request.". That way they know what's coming, but also know it isn't a huge rush. If they're too busy at the moment I'll get a "Stand by", which is just fine. For a tower the AIM format is already brief.

Works for me, use it regularly.

 

[sj]

Stepping on someone and having to "re-do" the big spiel is why I see it the way I was taught in 1986 and operate at Hood in the common era.

As others have pointed out, there should rarely be a "big speil"

sj