What to do with a PA-23???

[Taledrger]

I bought a hangar the other day and may "inherit" the Apache that is sitting in it. The aircraft has been sitting for 7-8 years, last annual in 2005 i think....
When it was parked it was a good, well maintained aircraft but the owner lost interest and now it is ... well, junk in my opinion. The engines are O-320B1A with Hartzell CS props (with AD due by years not hours). The engines had 450 since factory reman when the airplane was parked so I think they would be good cores if nothing else. The cams are toast I would imagine but....
Does anyone know if the 320B1A can be converted to fixed pitch or possibly any way to put the engine and the prop on my L21?
The more likely scenario will be to find some one to just come haul it away...

 

[Cub junkie]

Make a tetrahedron out of it. Or donate it to an A&P school for a tax write off.

 

[CRUISER160]

The Apache is coming back into favor as a cheap multi engine trainer and time builder, fix it fly it then sell it, the cabin is huge and they are fun to fly, years ago my multi instructor called it a cub with two engines, it is bullet proof.
The flying potato she is ugly but it's value is starting to climb.

 

[don d]

Nothing in a good about it at all. You need to give it to me

 

[L18C-95]

I fondly remember flying a -160 back from Scotland on a fine summer day, low level, power on economy cruise...and being cheekily overtaken by a Cherokee 180!

John Talmage of Diamondaire is a great source for parts, and if he still has the Geronimo franchise he may have someone interested in a barn find airframe suitable for conversion? Worth giving him a call. They were well built with zinc chromate primer so no reason why they can't be brought back to airworthiness if hangared.

The -150 and -160(?) can be run on mogas - possibly the cheapest twin you can operate. With the new 1,500 hour requirement for Part 121 perhaps they will come back as a multi hour builder.

 

[Richgj3]

cub with two engines

We called them "Double Brested Cubs"

 

[Patrol Guy]

You keep the engines, and I'll trade you a complete set (4) of rare, hard to find Space Shuttle main landing gear tires (put in your collection), for the rest of it?? I have a big pole that's waiting for a metal airplane.

 

[StalledOut]

Do the Geranimo conversion and turn it into a real airplane.............

 

[Taledrger]

I will know more about the disposition of the a/c late in the week. The owners wife is having heart surgery Wed. so his priorities are with her right now.

Can any one comment on whether I can use one of these engines on my Cub or not....???

 

[stewartb]

O-320-B1A is a 160hp engine. That'll require an installation STC and the installation STC will name the applicable models. Even if not named I'd guess it would be a simple process to get one approved.

 

[skywagon8a]

....Does anyone know if the 320B1A can be converted to fixed pitch or possibly any way to put the engine and the prop on my L21?
The more likely scenario will be to find some one to just come haul it away...

Look at note 5 here:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/74c397f0d8fa23b886257b63006ba6a4/$FILE/E-274_Rev_22.pdf
or http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...74C397F0D8FA23B886257B63006BA6A4?OpenDocument
Yes the B1A can be converted to fixed pitch. It's easy with a log book entry.

Look at equipment #111 here:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/ab203ab0e89895af862572090071f7cd/$FILE/1A2.pdf
or http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...862572090071FBC9?OpenDocument&Highlight=pa-18
This lists the log book entry only approved engines. The high compression 160 hp would need to use an available STC or a field approval from your FSDO.

It would be a shame to scrap an otherwise good Apache. If you want to scrap it, why don't you trade it to someone for a brand new engine for your Cub? Then the Apache would live and you would get a better deal on your engine. The Apache is a great, although low powered (low fuel burn), airplane.

 

[n40ff]

Easy convert to FP. Drill 1/8" hole in rear crank plug and install front plug. My IO320B1A in my Acroduster 2 had been sitting and cam/tappets were fine. It just depends.........on what, I don't know. I've heard of cams toast after sitting a few months and others rust free after many years:roll:

Jack

 

[Steve Pierce]

Yep, there is a Lycoming service instruction for converting the engine to fixed pitch prop. We used an engine off an Apache on my Dad's PA16 Clipper. No big deal. Cub Crafters has the STC to install the engine on the Super Cub.

 

[skywagon8a]

Easy convert to FP. Drill 1/8" hole in rear crank plug and install front plug. My IO320B1A in my Acroduster 2 had been sitting and cam/tappets were fine. It just depends.........on what, I don't know. I've heard of cams toast after sitting a few months and others rust free after many years:roll:

Jack

What do you do with the chips, from drilling, that fall into the engine? It doesn't do any harm "not drilling" the hole.

 

[WhiskeyMike]

My 2 cents....IRAN the engines, (there's no certainty that anything is bad until you look) overhaul the props and fly it. Why throw away a perfectly good (vintage) airplane that could help a lot of people pick up twin ratings and hours. And could be a lot of fun to fly. You could sell it afterwards. I'm against trashing old airplanes. Think back... How many P-51's and P-47's were bulldozed and melted into scrap metal? It's a bit like real estate, they aren't making any more.-- Unless its a total trash heap, not zinc chromated and corroded. Or donate it to an aviation school. According to Boeing there's a huge coming shortage of pilots and mechanics. You might even get a tax deduction. 8)

 

[Steve Pierce]

It was a long time ago but I believe we pierced the hole.

 

[mvivion]

What do you do with the chips, from drilling, that fall into the engine? It doesn't do any harm "not drilling" the hole.

I flew one that didn't have the hole drilled, and it ran REALLY warm oil temperature, even in late winter Interior Alaska, with no cover on the oil cooler. I think that one came off a Twin Comanche. Mechanics drilled a hole in the rear crank plug with a really long drill bit, and ran perfect.

A year or so later, I ran into a fellow who also had a hot running Cub engine......turns out the Cub was rebuilt by the same company......hole drilled in the rear crank plug and all was well with that one as well.......it was he engine off the other wing of that Twinkie. Never have trusted anything out of that shop since.

I have no idea how that all worked, but without the hole drilled, they ran REALLY high oil temps, and I'm guessing there was part of those engines that wasn't getting lubricated properly. Later, I asked the instructor at the Lycoming Piston Engine Service School about this, and his eyes got kind of big when I told home thipese engines were "converted" without the hole in the rear plug. Bad thing, apparently.

MTV

 

[N86250]

Easy convert to FP. Drill 1/8" hole in rear crank plug and install front plug. My IO320B1A in my Acroduster 2 had been sitting and cam/tappets were fine. It just depends.........on what, I don't know. I've heard of cams toast after sitting a few months and others rust free after many years:roll:

Jack

Yes, sometimes it's just crazy. The engine still on an airframe sitting in a hangar for years, outside it looks new, and it's rusty inside. The runout that was thrown in the dirt beside the hangar, drowned in rainwater from the roof, and covered in snow each winter, corroded crank flange and cylinder fins rotted away, but inside it's still oily and no corrosion at all. No rhyme or reason. jrh

 

[skywagon8a]

I flew one that didn't have the hole drilled, and it ran REALLY warm oil temperature, even in late winter Interior Alaska, with no cover on the oil cooler. I think that one came off a Twin Comanche. Mechanics drilled a hole in the rear crank plug with a really long drill bit, and ran perfect. ....MTV

Hmmm? Mike, the engine in my Cub had a constant speed in it's former airplane. All I did was to remove the external oil transfer tube and install the front plug. It runs just great with cool temperatures in the summer and cold in the winter. I can think of no reason to open the rear plug other than to keep the inside of the shaft from rusting. I filled mine with oil. I am aware of the recommendation to poke a hole in the rear plug. But didn't do it in case I decide to change back in the future.

 

[Steve Pierce]

Here is the Lycoming service instruction.
http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/t...Fixed Pitch Propeller and Vice Versa; ....pdf

 

[mvivion]

Hmmm? Mike, the engine in my Cub had a constant speed in it's former airplane. All I did was to remove the external oil transfer tube and install the front plug. It runs just great with cool temperatures in the summer and cold in the winter. I can think of no reason to open the rear plug other than to keep the inside of the shaft from rusting. I filled mine with oil. I am aware of the recommendation to poke a hole in the rear plug. But didn't do it in case I decide to change back in the future.

Pete,

i cant explain it. Both those engines ran hot. Holes drilled, and they ran cool.

MTV

 

[n40ff]

I recall a horror story, near disaster on one w/o hole drilled, front plug blew out..... I believe it's possible for the inside of crank to see full oil PSI w/o the hole? There is a way to install a special governor cover that hooks-up to transfer tube to relieve pressure into acc. case to make conversion back easier(and legal) but I doubt if that cover is STC'ed? There is a thread about this issue on the biplane forum.

I used long drill with that fuel proof "EZ Turn" on drill that easily caught all the chips.

It seems some rear plugs have screw/pipe plug? If I wanted to convert back to CS I'd drill/tap the hole for 10X32 screw.(experimental)

Jack

 

[skywagon8a]

With all due respect, 90psi should not have blown out the front plug if it was properly installed.

 

[n40ff]

Good question. What exactly is the proper method to install the front plug? I couldn't find it in my manuals?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[skywagon8a]

I have not seen any written instructions. Just push it in place against the shoulder with the dome facing out. Then, with a hammer, hit the dome towards but not all of the way towards flat. The domed section pushes the outer circumference out, wedging it against the crank bore when flattened. If you hit it too far, the dome will reverse and the plug will fall out. This is just like a freeze plug on a car block.

 

[n40ff]

Thanks. That's what I did but wasn't sure it was correct. Seemed to be the only way to make it work. I was afraid to collapse it too much and it leaks slightly. I think you are correct, if "properly installed" I doubt if 90psi would blow it out. But I still think it wise to comply with the SB and drill or pierce the rear plug. BTW, the SB does say "pierce". I decided to drill a clean hole so that it would be easier to drill/tap and plug later if I wanted a CS.

Thanks again

Jack

 

[skywagon8a]

If you are getting a little leak you can tap the bulge closer to the edge. This will help to tighten the plug. I had a slight leak on the last one that I did. This solved the problem.

 

[n40ff]

Thanks

 

[Taledrger]

Aired up the tires and pulled the old girl out for a bath today.... she looks pretty good... think she needs to fly again!!!

 

[n40ff]

If you are getting a little leak you can tap the bulge closer to the edge. This will help to tighten the plug. I had a slight leak on the last one that I did. This solved the problem.

I took a close look at my O290G that had a new O320 crank installed. If it had the typical domed plug installed, they must have used a special shaped tool. The plug appears flat around the edge and dome is reversed/pushed in toward the center. I should have taken a picture.

Whatever I think it will work fine w/o a special tool/punch.

Thanks again,

Plane does look good.......makes one want to crank her up......8)

Jack