Gordon Misch
MEMBER
Toledo, Wa (KTDO)
Perry, is this a public event? If so, would you have some more info?
Tie-Downs and Straps
- Thread starter tbone
- Start date
Perry, is this a public event? If so, would you have some more info?
B
Barnstormer
I'm also in the tie-down tight camp and use Hammer's Amsteel tie down system.
For tie down anchors I carry duckbills and Abe's Tie Down System
For tie down anchors I carry duckbills and Abe's Tie Down System
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Ratchet straps if used as tie downs should be twisted between plane and anchor. If not and left flat will be worn out by the wind as the high velocity air oscillates and eventually wears out the fibers. Flat bad...round better.
Gary
Gary
PerryB
FRIEND
Chico, CA
Yes, I believe anybody is welcome, even you :smile:. I'll get back on here in a bit with the info. I have to jump over to my email and pull it up. I stumbled onto the event by chance a couple years ago and it turned out to be a fun time. A lot of people come on the Fri and camp out for the weekend.
** I forwarded you a copy of the announcement. I hope you can make it, I'd enjoy seeing you again.
Last edited:
reliableflyer
Registered User
Seldovia, Alaska
Preference is a good thing. We like certain colors for whatever reason so we paint our planes those colors. Using rope which can stretch vs rope which has no stretch is really just a physics or engineering issue.
All tie downs should be tight, without looseness in the line. If one uses stretchable rope like nylon, it is like preloading a spring, tension is there and if it stretches the tension increases so it remains tight. We need to use line that exceeds the working and breaking force that can be imposed by our planes. West Marine says that nylon, which is normally considered the best for dock lines will stretch 16 percent when loaded to 15 percent of its breaking strength. USBoat has a good discussion of the value of shock absorption of lines which stretch. I know that planes are not boats but the physics and principals are the same.
Most times the tie downs in the ground or the rocks, trees or logs that we are tying to, are not in the perfect locations for our planes. When in the field they are at times quite a distance from the plane. Frequently lines are angled out or back toward the plane from from the tie downs. Rarely if ever is the tail tie down in the perfect location. There is virtually always movement of the tail from one side to the other, sometimes the plane sideways of forward or backward, even if the lines are tight. Gusts or change in wind direction move the plane even if the tail wheel is directly over the tie down. There will be tail wheel movement from pivoting or twisting even if it is tied tight. Furthermore there is movement of the plane due to tire flex. If there is any movement of the tail, some slack in the tie down lines result, leaving the possibility of jerk if there is no stretch to the line. Line which can stretch can be preloaded which leaves room for more stretch and absorbs any loosening and also absorbs slack.
The elevators should be tied down so wind can lift the tail slightly and reduce the angle of attack and relieves stress on the wings and tie downs. It also protects the tail when a gust hit it from behind.
Trying to over power the wind with lines is like trying to over power ocean swells with lines. Movement allows pressure to be relieved and trying to stop all movement is futile. A good place to find good tie down lines is at a good marine supply store. There is a place for line which does not stretch. Sheets used for hoisting sails use line with no stretch but dock lines that need to absorb shock use lines that do stretch and none that I know of stretch 25 percent. Stretchable lines are not bunji chords.
There are also differences in structure of a Cessna and a cub. The cub happens to have an issue with the tie down brackets which I mentioned in a previous post and requires special attention.
We all should march to our own drummers and I have learned to listen to my knowledge and experience. I consider carefully advise being given to me.
Perhaps one might choose to present this issue to an engineer. I have.
All tie downs should be tight, without looseness in the line. If one uses stretchable rope like nylon, it is like preloading a spring, tension is there and if it stretches the tension increases so it remains tight. We need to use line that exceeds the working and breaking force that can be imposed by our planes. West Marine says that nylon, which is normally considered the best for dock lines will stretch 16 percent when loaded to 15 percent of its breaking strength. USBoat has a good discussion of the value of shock absorption of lines which stretch. I know that planes are not boats but the physics and principals are the same.
Most times the tie downs in the ground or the rocks, trees or logs that we are tying to, are not in the perfect locations for our planes. When in the field they are at times quite a distance from the plane. Frequently lines are angled out or back toward the plane from from the tie downs. Rarely if ever is the tail tie down in the perfect location. There is virtually always movement of the tail from one side to the other, sometimes the plane sideways of forward or backward, even if the lines are tight. Gusts or change in wind direction move the plane even if the tail wheel is directly over the tie down. There will be tail wheel movement from pivoting or twisting even if it is tied tight. Furthermore there is movement of the plane due to tire flex. If there is any movement of the tail, some slack in the tie down lines result, leaving the possibility of jerk if there is no stretch to the line. Line which can stretch can be preloaded which leaves room for more stretch and absorbs any loosening and also absorbs slack.
The elevators should be tied down so wind can lift the tail slightly and reduce the angle of attack and relieves stress on the wings and tie downs. It also protects the tail when a gust hit it from behind.
Trying to over power the wind with lines is like trying to over power ocean swells with lines. Movement allows pressure to be relieved and trying to stop all movement is futile. A good place to find good tie down lines is at a good marine supply store. There is a place for line which does not stretch. Sheets used for hoisting sails use line with no stretch but dock lines that need to absorb shock use lines that do stretch and none that I know of stretch 25 percent. Stretchable lines are not bunji chords.
There are also differences in structure of a Cessna and a cub. The cub happens to have an issue with the tie down brackets which I mentioned in a previous post and requires special attention.
We all should march to our own drummers and I have learned to listen to my knowledge and experience. I consider carefully advise being given to me.
Perhaps one might choose to present this issue to an engineer. I have.
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
How about lowering tire pressure, then tie down, then pump tires back up?
Takes at least some of the "squish" out of the equation.
This might help if you were forced to use chain tie-downs.
FWIW I'm kinda surprised by the number of people I see that don't bother to even carry chocks, let alone tie-down lines.
WanaBNACub
Registered User
Off Airport
I am also in the low stretch, tight tie down group. I had a bear hunting trip turn south my first year flying when the winds came up just after I went to sleep. Luckily I was camped right next to the plane and I had to be up all night long until the winds started to die down to keep tightening the somewhat stretchy ropes I had. The plane dance around like crazy no matter how tight I tied them. Now I use the same type of spectra line tiedowns as above. along with a second solid line if I expect the winds to come up. And if I can tie down to more than one anchor per wing I do that too. Another thing I do if I know its going to be windy is to dig holes to bury the mains and try to get the wings at as low an angle of attack as possible.
I never rely solely on the tie down rings as I always take the rope thru it then around the strut then back thru the ring. Would hate to lose a bird with the failure of that little ring.
Also prefer lines with a little give to them for shock absorption, even though they are tied tightly.
Also prefer lines with a little give to them for shock absorption, even though they are tied tightly.
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
This thing hit Oshkosh while I was camped there with my 11, which was tied down with climbing rope. The tie downs were Fly Ties, which I prefer to the Claw. Winds hit hard and fast, and rapidly shifted direction from behind the plane to in front over a matter of a few minutes. My plane moved around a lot, but held well. There was a J-3 two plane's down from me that was spun around, collided with a Cessna next door, and stood on its nose. It was tied with 1/4 inch nylon line to dog anchors......:roll:.
I lived and flew in Cold Bay and Kodiak, AK for a total of ~ 11 years, all that time tending plane's tied down outside. The wind blows a bit occasionally in both those places. I want some stretch in lines, and I want STRONG lines. But one of the best tie down "tools" is the pilot, baby sitting the airplane all night if need be on windy ones.
After Judge Kalamaredes (pardon the spelling if I butchered that, Pete) was killed in his Cub, the SC I was assigned at the time in Kodiak was checked carefully, and all four strut attach fittings were bent.....one of them badly bent. That plane was tied down with chains by the gent I replaced there. Don't tie a plane down with chains. Atlees tiedown mod is a good one, I'm amazed more Cubs don't get that when rebuilt.
Get good tiedowns, good rope to make tiedown lines, and tend your plane when it's windy.
MTV
I lived and flew in Cold Bay and Kodiak, AK for a total of ~ 11 years, all that time tending plane's tied down outside. The wind blows a bit occasionally in both those places. I want some stretch in lines, and I want STRONG lines. But one of the best tie down "tools" is the pilot, baby sitting the airplane all night if need be on windy ones.
After Judge Kalamaredes (pardon the spelling if I butchered that, Pete) was killed in his Cub, the SC I was assigned at the time in Kodiak was checked carefully, and all four strut attach fittings were bent.....one of them badly bent. That plane was tied down with chains by the gent I replaced there. Don't tie a plane down with chains. Atlees tiedown mod is a good one, I'm amazed more Cubs don't get that when rebuilt.
Get good tiedowns, good rope to make tiedown lines, and tend your plane when it's windy.
MTV
Attachments
Static climbing rope typical stretch is 4%. Dynamic climbing rope typical stretch is 25-30%. 4% has worked really well for me. I keep some dynamic rope around for tugging the plane around with my pickup in winter. Stretch is good for that, but it can slingshot the plane if I 'm not paying attention. I have a bulk spool of 1/4" Blue Steel line (dyneema). Really cool stuff but it requires different knots if you don't want it to fail at the knot. it's sorta like fluorocarbon fishing line in that respect. Really thin and tough but if you use your same old knots it'll break at the knot at a fraction of the duty rating. And that stuff has zero give. It's great for winch lines, and I keep a skein in my winter come-along kit for extending the reach.
Cessna wing rings- run the rope over the strut, come under and through the ring, then back over the strut and down to tie off. No stress on the ring and no slippage of the rope on the strut. Not important until the winds are howling. When the plane's out in 100mph winds there's not much you can do. Gravel feels like bullets hitting you. Flying debris is dangerous. Say your Hail Marys and go seek shelter!
Cessna wing rings- run the rope over the strut, come under and through the ring, then back over the strut and down to tie off. No stress on the ring and no slippage of the rope on the strut. Not important until the winds are howling. When the plane's out in 100mph winds there's not much you can do. Gravel feels like bullets hitting you. Flying debris is dangerous. Say your Hail Marys and go seek shelter!
Citabrialaska
PATRON
Matsu
Hey folks what is your opinion on carabiners? I bought some ice screws the other day and realized I couldn’t tie down right to the ring on them because it had fairly sharp edges. That got me to thinking about duckbills which could also cut through your rope I think. I bought these carabiners from a climbing store. They are rated to 5620 pounds.
WindOnHisNose
BENEFACTOR
Lino Lakes MN (MY18)
I agree regarding knots, from a surgeon's perspective, from a fly fishing perspective and from an aviation perspective.
When sutures fail, it is most commonly from a knot that comes untied, for from poor tissue composition. Obesity, history of cigarette smoking, poor general health all made me more selective as to how big of a "bite" to take with the surgical needle. I think the choice of suture/tie down rope is also critical in avoiding failure. The suture/tie down rope needs to be of sufficient strength to handle the task at hand. Sutures are pretty much quality controlled to retain its composition even when stored for long periods. I have been negatively impressed with the tie down ropes that are found at many airports. Some are very old and the integrity is suspect. Some are simply not strong enough to take much stress before breaking. For these reasons I carry my own ropes, and I replace my ropes when inspection calls questions regarding the integrity of the rope. Of course, using duck-billed anchors are the cats meow, but they are considered to be "permanent" and this makes them less likely to be chosen.
When I have had buddies who lost a fight with a good trout, post-event evaluation often shows the remnants of the knot at the "new" end of the line.
With regard to aviation, there are some relatively rough studies that show Flyties and the Claw as being equivalent, but both depend upon "good tissue" into which the devices are placed. This has led me to carry two sets of Flyties, doubling down on each wing, particularly when driving the stakes down into really soft soil.
I have found a carabiner, such as was photographed here, is a very useful tool. It is sometimes very useful to get into the tie down eye that is often packed with soil. Again, choosing a good knot when attaching the carabiner to the tie down rope is important, and that the knot is tied correctly.
With regard to the type of knot to be tied onto the tie down eye, or to the carabiner, I would like to see some solid data regarding which knot is most secure.
Thanks for reviving this thread!
Doc R
WindOnHisNose
BENEFACTOR
Lino Lakes MN (MY18)
You have brought to mind another potentially useful and valuable Hangar Flying session at the 2025 Great Minnesota Aviation Gathering, to be held a the Buffalo MN Municipal Airport (KCFE) on Friday and Saturday, May 16-17..."Considerations for Securing Your Aircraft". Thank you!
Doc R
Doc R
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
I can't argue with that, but....you gotta attach the carabiner to the line SOMEHOW.... Unless, of course, you were to use straps.....but then you're reliant on the stitching of the straps to secure them to their hardware.
Bottom line is nothing's perfect, but properly rated rope with good knots will generally win the day. At least until one of these "biblical" storms comes to visit. I watched a C-150 sit through a really big storm with 100 mph gusts.....tied down with hardware store "rope". Amazing.
MTV
SchulerJL
BENEFACTOR
Peoria, Illinois
My preference is for "BigScrew Tiedowns" if you have room to carry an impact wrench they are really easy to put in and out, otherwise a 1" wrench is fine. https://bigscrewtiedown.com/
Here is a good introduction on securing your aircraft.
I picked up some Arborist climbing rope a few years back and I think I am going to go back to a Dynamic climbing rope. I used Dynamic rope for over 12 years and I think it ties easier and I like that I can preload the tension a lot better than the Static rope. Both will work the Key is getting the right size rope and knowing how to tie knots that hold.
DENNY
DENNY
Hopefully you are parked into the wind and it is a lifting force. Winds from the side can pick up a wing and drop the other side, Tailwind will pick up untied tail and put a plane on its nose or all the way over.
DENNY
cubgeek
MEMBER
For tying down, I really like my SlideDown ropes - dead easy to set up, and as strong as the usual knots:
For the ground anchor on grass/dirt, the FlyTies supposedly create a much stronger anchor than the screw-type ones:
www.flyties.com
For the ground anchor on grass/dirt, the FlyTies supposedly create a much stronger anchor than the screw-type ones:
Airplane Tie-down innovators - FlyTies®
FlyTies® Company is dedicated to manufacturing the best aircraft tie-down stakes on the market. During the past 20 years we have been able to strengthen and improve our product in order to provide the very best in quality, strength and ease of use.
55-PA18A
SPONSOR
Dillingham, Alaska
There are more than one type of screw in anchors. Some better than others.For tying down, I really like my SlideDown ropes - dead easy to set up, and as strong as the usual knots:
For the ground anchor on grass/dirt, the FlyTies supposedly create a much stronger anchor than the screw-type ones:
Airplane Tie-down innovators - FlyTies®
FlyTies® Company is dedicated to manufacturing the best aircraft tie-down stakes on the market. During the past 20 years we have been able to strengthen and improve our product in order to provide the very best in quality, strength and ease of use.
PlaneWrangler
Registered User
What?
Climbing line or sailboat docking line is my top choice, with a proper bowline or similar knot
biggest issue I see with most all tied down planes is sloppy loose knot work
Guy doing a review on lots of anchors
biggest issue I see with most all tied down planes is sloppy loose knot work
Guy doing a review on lots of anchors
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
There's lots of knots. I have used this for aircraft with a couple of modifications> https://www.simucheck.com/eng/Media/view/30
One is a full circle wrap around the plane's wing tie down to spread out load on the rope at that spot. Same at the ground anchor. The other is to secure the open end after that last knot. How is optional. Real wind will whip a typical loose rope end around which can eventually loosen or even untie them.
Gary
One is a full circle wrap around the plane's wing tie down to spread out load on the rope at that spot. Same at the ground anchor. The other is to secure the open end after that last knot. How is optional. Real wind will whip a typical loose rope end around which can eventually loosen or even untie them.
Gary
I think the anchor is more important than the actual rope or strap. I've lost two airplanes where the anchor pulled out of the ground (airport supplied anchors). For portable anchors, the soil they go into has a lot to do with the type of anchor used. Sandy soil will require a totally different type anchor from hard packed clay or frozen ground
