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The "Perfect" Super Cub

bruce_fowler

Registered User
I was shopping for a husky at Sun n Fun and stumbled across Turbine Cubs of Wyoming. Seeing the beautiful, shiny aircraft got me thinking about building an experimental Super Cub. I must admit that I'm not all too familiar with the Super Cubs, so I'm seeking advice from the experts on the forum.

Question: Assuming unlimited funds, where would you purchase your kit (complete or piece parts) and what additional items would you incorporate into your project if you intended to mount the aircraft on amphibs? For example, If you purchased the Turbine Cub kit what options and additional options would you add (overhead flap handle, wide cabin, etc) and what engine and hp would you use (Innodyne turbine, etc.)?

Thanks for your assistance.
 
bruce_fowler said:
I was shopping for a husky at Sun n Fun and stumbled across Turbine Cubs of Wyoming. Seeing the beautiful, shiny aircraft got me thinking about building an experimental Super Cub. I must admit that I'm not all too familiar with the Super Cubs, so I'm seeking advice from the experts on the forum.

Question: Assuming unlimited funds, where would you purchase your kit (complete or piece parts) and what additional items would you incorporate into your project if you intended to mount the aircraft on amphibs? For example, If you purchased the Turbine Cub kit what options and additional options would you add (overhead flap handle, wide cabin, etc) and what engine and hp would you use (Innodyne turbine, etc.)?

Thanks for your assistance.


If I had unlimited funds the last thing I would do is buy a kit.

Take your unlimited funds and buy a PA-18-160 and a C-180.

Personally, I would never put amphibs on a cub either.

Tim

PS- I think the same guy selling the snake oil is also in the innodyne turbine business.
 
Bruce

Welcome to Supercub.org. This is a great website and it is fairly mature. There are literally thousands of posts and probably hundreds that address your questions. If you spend some time using the search feature you will enjoy many hours of reading. There are about probably about 30 guys on this website building Smithcubs and a huge photogallery of one that was put on Clamar Amphibs. Enjoy the ride and after a week or two of reading I'll bet you find answers to most anything you could want to know about Supercubs.

Bill
 
I'm with Tim. A stock 160 Cub. Only mods would be an X-brace overhead, military seat belts and shoulder harnesses, a good radio and xpdr, and Grove brakes. Plus, an early C-180 with center stack, a simple leading edge cuff, and IFR certified - as much power as reasonable without upsetting the weight/balance. Both yellow and red.
 
Welcome Bruce,

If I had unlimited funds, I would be sure I had Victor or Lycon hand build me a strong engine. There is no substitute for power bolted on the front of anything. Go the big bucks on a prop as well. The rest is academic.

You obviously like the rag and tube taildraggers. Good choice. There are some nice airplanes to be had.

But you also might consider having someone like the Warrens or CUB CRAFTERS build you up a high performance certified wide body. Both companies have done it .
 
If you purchased the Turbine Cub kit what options and additional options would you add (overhead flap handle, wide cabin, etc) and what engine and hp would you use (Innodyne turbine, etc.)?
We had a Turbine Beaver come through here a year or two back. That thing gulps so much fuel that they had to build a whole new wet wing just so that it had a range of marginal value. If I were to build a Turbine Cub, I think I'd include the in-flight refueling option so that I wouldn't have to land so often.
 
I'd go for super cub performance another way with unlimited funds. It'd be a 4 place that gets off quicker and lands shorter. It's built by Robinson and says R44 on the side.
 
Q. Why do helicopters fly?

A. Because they are so ugly and noisy that the earth repels them!
 
Unlimited funds? I would take one of everything!

I'd probably get an 11 frame, do everything from scratch. Make it as light as possible. Put the largest engine on the front I can that can be hand started.

Then I would get a jet, and a twin, and.....
 
Tim
I have a 180SC that I am considering putting on amphibs. I realize weight issues are significant but what other thoughts lead you to the conclusion that you would never put a supercub on amphibs?
 
KingCub said:
Tim
I have a 180SC that I am considering putting on amphibs. I realize weight issues are significant but what other thoughts lead you to the conclusion that you would never put a supercub on amphibs?

My conclusion is:

1. The insurance is pricey.
2. The performance sucks.
3. The price of getting into amphibs is high.
4. By the time you have two adults and gas it is tough to load anything else in a 2k# cub legally.

Just not for me, everybody has their opinion, thats just mine. I like the idea of amphibs, its the utility/price figure that you need to consider.

Tim

PS- I would try before you buy, both amphibs and straight floats.
 
where is this going??

I wanted to post just this type of question. No one is answering.

I own and built an experimental RV8 and recently purchased
a PA-12 with an O290. I love both, but am doing an annual
on the 12 and hating all the certified hoops to jump through.
I would like to install 8.50's, move the oil cooler to the back
baffle and other things. Adding flaps or rear baggage is
almost unaffordable. The pain is not worth it. Here is the
reason for the experimental cub.

I flew to Sun and Fun in the 8 (from San Antonio, 4.5 hours,
try that in a cub) to look at the Turbine Cub kit (smith kit)
and Legend Cub kit. I wanted a light and simple utility cub.
The Turbine cub seems to fit my needs better than the too
simple Legend.

Now for the questions that Bruce originally asked. There are
many options when building the cub. All have pros and cons.
What would someone add or delete to make a great
performing plane with the necessary add on's and deletions.

O360 that could be run on pump gas or 0320? Have only right
side door with left side hinged window? How many baggage
doors are really needed to get gear stowed efficiently? Is
extra fuel capacity worth the extra weight? Thrust line motor
mount a must!! They have injection on the prototype what are
the benefits? How big do the tires have to be (I know the bigger
the better)? Goodyear 26's or 8.50's?? What type of wing tips
or maybe VG's. Powder coated frame delete (I do not trust
the stuff)?

There a thousand things. I am finishing my house with the
runway in the backyard. As soon as able will start on a cub kit.

Please, help with good ideas. There are likely many lurkers on the
list afraid to ask.

George Meketa
RV8 and PA12
 
I can understand your frustration with this question. I've been asking the same things for a while now.

But the questions asked are kind of hard to answer really. Trying to describe the "perfect super cub" is akin to describing the perfect women. No two people will agree 100% with the other. You can ask which of this, that or the other thing is best, but then you hear from another respected source saying just the opposite.

So really, what you have to do, like I've been doing, is search through the posts, ask lots of different people for their opinions and why they hold them, and try to make up you own mind with out going completely bonkers.

For my project, I'll try to keep it light and simple. I'll go with fuel injection coupled with a good engine monitor just to try to get the most out of a gallon of expensive gas. I'll go with 26 GY, cuz I wont need the more costly BW. Beyond that, I'll just play it by ear.

Good luck
 
Re: where is this going??

rv8drvr said:
I wanted to post just this type of question. No one is answering.

I own and built an experimental RV8 and recently purchased
a PA-12 with an O290. I love both, but am doing an annual
on the 12 and hating all the certified hoops to jump through.
I would like to install 8.50's, move the oil cooler to the back
baffle and other things. Adding flaps or rear baggage is
almost unaffordable. The pain is not worth it. Here is the
reason for the experimental cub.

RV8 and PA12

The drawback I see to an experimental cub is the fact that if you need to sell it you are most likely going to take a hit.

I also find it interesting that you say putting flaps and a big motor on a -12 will break the bank. You might want to find everything that is not included in your kit and figure out what that is going to cost in the end.


Tim
 
George, et al;
The first question you should ask is; Whats the mission. Hardcore, Alaska type flying, or a Sunday flyer?
The second question to ask yourself; What's the budget.

From there you should be able to define The "Perfect" Cub; one that fits your needs exactly.

For me... the perfect cub is.....

Experimental (the pros and cons of Exp vs. Cert are a wash in my opinion. I'll take either.)
Wide fuselage (for my wide ass)
extended baggage w/ lower door
top deck baggage w/ upper door
3" extended gear
Brake boosters
float fittings
26" goodyears (for day-to-day use)
29" Bushwheels (for SC gatherings so no one laughs at my little tires)
Extended flaps (inboard)
Overhead flap handle
"X" bracing (a must!)
Atlee steps
square wing tips
standard instruments with a Garmin 496/sl40/tx330
engine analiser
O-360
90" prop
left hand swing-up window
Thrustline
VG's
Strobes (wing and tail)
24-30 gallons in the wings
50/50 belly-pod (fuel and baggage)

Well thats all I can think of for now. Alaska capable, lower 48 friendly.

nkh
 
Re: where is this going??

behindpropellers said:
The drawback I see to an experimental cub is the fact that if you need to sell it you are most likely going to take a hit.

What I wonder is approx how much of a hit? (Maybe a percentage guess on a same-same airplane)

I plan to recover & re-engine my ol' gal over the next few years & keep it "forever" ...as without subscribing to the Maule.org I see no reason to ever switch from my SCub. :) I'm thinking that if an airplane is well maintained/documented, the hit shouldn't be too huge, but then I tend to be more practical than rule-abiding.
 
:) Thanks TJ, you're a man after my own heart. I reckon that answers my question, don't it.

Still, if anyone else cares to offer an opinion...
... are there any opinions out there?

Oops, that might be classed as stinky bait :)
 
I keep hearing about the lack of value in experimental supercubs. I've been looking at various websites and have yet to see very many for sale. This means that people are either keeping them forever or they are changing hands without being advertised. I know of only one advertised in Anchorage this last 12 month period. That one was advertised for 75k and didn't stay advertised long. Did someone buy it or did he give up advertising. With 50 year old cubs going for big bucks a fresh airframe makes a lot of sense.
 
On the "taking a hit" by building experimental, it seems to me you "take a hit" either way. With certified, you "take your hit" through initial purchase price and through increased maintenance costs/complexity, with the caveat that you will most probably have an airplane in the air, quicker.

With experimental, you "take your hit" on the backside through reduced resale value, with reduced maintenance costs, with the caveat that you probably won't get to fly it while you're building.

All of the above is dependent on the individual being capable of building an experimental aircraft.
 
As in flying itself the variables are unlimited---Wants -Needs -Uses. As my AI asked me at the beginning of my 12 rebuild " What are you going to do with it ?????"
 
(I also find it interesting that you say putting flaps and a big motor
on a -12 will break the bank. You might want to find everything
that is not included in your kit and figure out what that is going to
cost in the end.)

I did not say that. No mention of motor.
(Adding flaps or rear baggage is almost unaffordable. The pain is not worth it. Here is the reason for the experimental cub.)


I never said that it would break the bank, but would be unaffordable.
I have good recent fabric and it would require MAJOR disassembling
to install the flaps and baggage. I doubt that the upgrade would be
cost, time, or PITA worthy.

I have the 290 installed with a Univair STC and just purchased the
320 STC from them. PA18 tailfeathers are already installed so it
would be an easy upgrade.

Unless you are an A&P/IA with good resources, a certified 50
year old airplane is a pain to upgrade oneself or very expensive
to pay for. Affordable is more than money. It is also time,
limits of certified parts and dealing with the Feds.

Experimental is not for everyone. There is a lot of responsibility
and a lot of physical and mental time necessary to build
a nice plane. The rewards are great. Much greater than
just purchasing one ready to go. Experimental outshines the
certified in maintainability. No more difficult to get 337
paperwork for proven non-STC'ed mods or the near total
inability for common sense ones.

Nathans list is a good starting point. I personally liked the idea
of dual seaplane doors, but it seems to add weight for no real
gain. The left window seems to win. I would like a high
compression 320, but gas is not getting any cheaper, so maybe
low compression 360. Does all the weight of extra baggage
doors and dual floors make up for one lower floor and one
external door. A green house and glass in the lower
doors looks good, but also adds weight and heat. The cargo pod
would be great way to add utility and removed for performance.
Now here is a start.

I would love to build a plane with all the bells and whistles, but
weight kills. The best plane will be the lightest with carefully chosen
add-ons. It would be very difficult to get it right without much
experience. That is why the questions are being asked.

Please be kind to us experimenters.

George Meketa
RV8 and pa-12
 
Only you know what you need. IMO, you don't build a plane to sell it, you build it to fit your needs. Your needs and mine are different as is everyones. Look at what others have done, and decide if you need it. It may be that you don't have the need for more doors or even a flat baggage area. If you don't plan on sleeping in it or dealing with bulky stuff, just keep it simple.
I just wish mine had the flat extended baggage..
Sharp
 
Regarding statement that planes are like women and what is right for one man may not be right for another. Mark Twain once noted that he had two rules that he always followed when dealing with women. He was quick to add, however, that neither of them worked !! So a lot of this stuff is trial and error-- some small amount of can be gleaned from the trials, experiences and mistakes of others. But most of the fun is in the TRIAL part. So good luck, and I hope to see you around the patch !!
STEVE J
 
George and Bruce

Here are some thoughts from a previous post.

I chose the round wing tips with 48 gal gas. As best I could tell the other wings don't give that much better slow speed performance, 1 or 2 knots and I greatly prefer the looks of the classic tips. If the squared tips gave a big performance advantage it might be worth the sacrifice in appearance. Obviously, appearance is strictly individual preference. Another factor driving most everything on the Cub is building for the 90% rule rather than the 10% rule. That is the one that says " What is 90% of your flying?" Answer for most of us is messing around the local area and getting the hamburger type thing. Example for me is the issue of dual doors. That left door might be nice when it is on floats (probably 30% of the time for me) and when I really need to dock on that side,(10% of 30%), so not very often, but the throttle will be in a uncomfortable position ALL of the time with dual doors. So it is not worth it to me to have poor ergonomics for the throttle for that one time a year event. One of the things I love about cubs is the way the controls just seem to fit and be in just the right place. It is a wonderfully comfortable plane to fly.
The door/throttle is just one example of many, and others may have other opinions but I do think whatever your opinion....build for what you will be doing MOST of the time.

It is so easy to build the dream plane for the once in a lifetime dream trip but unfortunately we carry the weight around the rest of the life of the plane. REALLY evaluate HONESTLY what you will be doing most of the time with the plane. If you fly 100 hours per year, how much will be on floats, skis, X/C etc. Then figure that after the first couple of years those numbers will probably drop as you take fewer X/C's, it is a hassle to put it on skis so you do it less often, maybe the same for floats. OK so now how often are you using that 72 gallons of fuel. Answer never but you are dragging that 50 pounds of tanks, plumbing etc on every local, around the patch, just for fun, flight.



Performance_Air_Cub_024.jpg




I really like this light and wanted to put one in my cub. Certainly looks nice. Then I got to thinking. I will only need it at night. 10% of my flying or less. But really only on the ground and probably when camping, in order to get something out of the plane. It would add about 1 pound. Do I really need it or can I just use a flashlight when camping a couple of times a year? I decided to just use a flashlight. But it is really easy to get suckered into adding all this stuff. Dual doors add weight, as does extra fuel, big engines, etc, etc. But each person builds his own "Perfect Cub" right? Maybe not. I have yet to hear anyone complain that their cub is too light, but I have heard complaints of not enough utility so you have to find what works for you.

Build for the 90% rule.

Just another opinion to help you in your search. There is a TON of good info on this site by some really experienced guys.

Bill
 
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