The Engine is Talking

[akavidflyer]

I've got argon bottles and regulators. I need an argon sensor to know when the air is exhausted. At least temporarily. Once rate/time of fill is established all I need is a timer.

Math will give you that number, but it wont take much, there is not that much volume of air you need to displace. Not sure I would bother though as it would be a bugger to seal it up and make sure that the argon stays in place.

 

[mike mcs repair]

I've got argon bottles and regulators. I need an argon sensor to know when the air is exhausted. At least temporarily. Once rate/time of fill is established all I need is a timer.

a flame at the external high point exit will extinguish once the oxygen is gone and argon is flowing out...

trouble being, there no exit at the high point of the engine, without drilling a hole and adding a removable plug or quick drain....

 

[wireweinie]

My thought was always to use nitrogen for this, but any inert gas that displaces oxygen should work. And there should only be two openings into most crankcases; the oil fill at the top and the breather tube out the bottom of the cowling. If you use a gas that is heavier than air and fill the crankcase from the breather, oxygen should be pushed out the oil fill. When you determine that the case is full, cork the breather and replace the oil fill cap. Unless you run the engine or do something else to disturb the gas, that should be good for a few days.

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[JeffP]

Looking at the lifters it reminds me of what was common recently with flat tappet marine engines we deal with. Some time ago the oil companies had to remove the zinc and magnesium additives from motor oil and while roller equipped engines did not suffer from this the results with flat tappet engines was Catastrophic. Additives have since become available and are standard practice now.


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[stewartb]

a flame at the external high point exit will extinguish once the oxygen is gone and argon is flowing out...

trouble being, there no exit at the high point of the engine, without drilling a hole and adding a removable plug or quick drain....

I'd insert the argon injection tube into the oil filler several inches. If the gas flows fairly slowly, and that would work best, the oxygen would be expelled out the same filler. There's plenty of room for both. The problem with filling from the breather outlet is that the breather tube is both the low and high point of the system. Unless the breather outlet was sealed it won't work. Sealing it and the whistle hole would be simple but not as simple as using the oil filler.

I'd think nearing the end of filling would be one time rotating the engine slowly would actually be beneficial, to open valves and to disturb any air pockets. All theoretical.

 

[Kahles56]

Place cap on exhaust pipe with hose connector, place cap over Carb with hose connector , hook both to argon source.
Place new oil-filler cap with a Freon filler device , I think its called a Shaffer valve or Prestolite valve, spelling is not my strong suit , and use a vacuum pump to remove air for about 20 to 30 seconds or when the pump stabilizes in sound then open the argon port and allow the vacuum pump to draw for a min or so.
The low pressure should help to disperse the Argon and overwhelm the oxygen inside the engine.

This should remove most of the O2 and H2O if the oil is not saturated.

Argon is inert and would not do any chemical harm, Nitrogen is inert as well but i do not know if there would be a problem. Nitrogen enbrittlement???? mabe? do not know.

I have stabilized a couple of Bug out end of world cans this way , I check them every 2 years for rust and corrosion. NEVER seen the first signs of rust any where on gun or discolor on ammo. Also ammo fires as new.

Should work for an engine.

 

[N86250]

When I hauled strawberries each pallet had a short plastic bag laid on it before the boxes were stacked. Then a large bag was put over the stack and taped to the bottom plastic forming a sealed cocoon. A hole was poked near the bottom and another at the top and nitrogen was added to fill the cocoon. The holes were then sealed with masking tape. My point is if the firewall is near air tight maybe it would be easier to bag the firewall forward and gas the whole front end.

 

[stewartb]

Since our engines are made to not leak at the bottom they breathe at the top a heavier than air gas introduced into the crankcase would be easier to manage than trying to keep a lighter than air gas in. Argon, once the air is displaced, should stay there until displaced by cranking the engine. I really would like a meter to test the theory. Mike's idea of a flame is interesting but not very precise. I may try it just the same. The big question is if it works, how long will it last without recharging with additional argon.

 

[wireweinie]

The big question is if it works, how long will it last without recharging with additional argon.

That depends on the engine on hand and the surrounding environment. I would expect a charge inside a typical four cylinder engine, inside a hanger, to last several days at least. Outside in the wind and weather, who knows?

If this works, it wouldn't be to hard to set up a timer or a phone app to recharge from a bottle left with the aircraft.

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[stewartb]

Interesting. I'd expect it to last much longer assuming fairly stable temperatures. Where would it go?

 

[wireweinie]

Normal heating and cooling, even inside, would seem to allow it to displace over time. That would be an interesting experiment right there. How long would the charge last and under what specific conditions?

Anyone here have experience testing anything like this?

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[supercub9675]

I use a modified approach- I use pickling oil + camguard, dessicant plugs (top) and then I shove an 8 watt "golden rod" up the exhaust pipe. Goldenrods are used in gun safes to control moisture/rust- in my experience they work great eliminating rust within the safe. I block the exhaust with metal duct tape then wrap an insulated blanket around the engine. The cub sits for about 6 months while I work on my tan...

 

[supercub9675]

Argon is a great idea, however, you need to hermetically seal the engine completely if you don't want moisture to get in/out with temperature/atmospheric pressure changes. I would think there would be a gradual dilution of the argon over time alththough the magnitude of the change is unknown and it may be insignificant. My friends father use to put a squirt of propane in paint cans before he sealed them. Apparently they never had an explosion and it preserved the paint!

 

[skywagon8a]

I use a modified approach- I use pickling oil + camguard, dessicant plugs (top) and then I shove an 8 watt "golden rod" up the exhaust pipe. Goldenrods are used in gun safes to control moisture/rust- in my experience they work great eliminating rust within the safe. I block the exhaust with metal duct tape then wrap an insulated blanket around the engine. The cub sits for about 6 months while I work on my tan...

Never heard of a "Goldenrod", this is what I found.
"How does GoldenRod® work?
GoldenRod® heats to a surface temperature of less than 150 degrees (which is almost too warm to hold) and circulates warm, dry air throughout an enclosure on a 24 hour basis. This increases the temperature of the air inside to several degrees above the ambient outside temperature. Expansion of the heated air forces the moist air outside through the vents or loose fitting doors leaving the dry air inside. In order to work correctly, it is important to ensure that there is adequate ventilation."

So my question is, How does this keep the moisture out of the crankcase? If you stick it up the exhaust it will only displace moisture where there are open exhaust valves. Any heat which penetrates the case will cause moisture to condense inside the crankcase making the situation worse.

 

[supercub9675]

Never heard of a "Goldenrod", this is what I found.
"How does GoldenRod® work?
GoldenRod® heats to a surface temperature of less than 150 degrees (which is almost too warm to hold) and circulates warm, dry air throughout an enclosure on a 24 hour basis. This increases the temperature of the air inside to several degrees above the ambient outside temperature. Expansion of the heated air forces the moist air outside through the vents or loose fitting doors leaving the dry air inside. In order to work correctly, it is important to ensure that there is adequate ventilation."

So my question is, How does this keep the moisture out of the crankcase? If you stick it up the exhaust it will only displace moisture where there are open exhaust valves. Any heat which penetrates the case will cause moisture to condense inside the crankcase making the situation worse.

That's exactly the product I have. Works great in my safe. As to your question, I don't know the answer or whether it is in fact a good idea! I just know it works great in a gun safe. I figure the dry heat can't hurt. I do have dessicant plugs and I noticed last year one of the 4 was pink, while the three others were blue. Maybe the exhaust valve was open in that cylinder. Another "thing" you could do is before you put the dessicant plugs in, squirt a little fogging oil in the chamber. This is recommended for outboard engine storage.

 

[stewartb]

Heat accelerates corrosion. Finding a way to chill the engine would be better.

It occurred to me that I don't need an argon tester, an oxygen tester will do the job and they're fairly cheap. Testing begins mid next week.

 

[mike mcs repair]

Heat accelerates corrosion. Finding a way to chill the engine would be better.

It occurred to me that I don't need an argon tester, an oxygen tester will do the job and they're fairly cheap. Testing begins mid next week.

I have a regulator/flow meter if you need to borrow short term to test with


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