The big slip

[cubdriver2]

Passenger comfort often dictates how the plane is flown. Get them queasy and it's sometimes followed by a safety meeting or whack on the head.

Gary

If the passenger doesn't ask " why are we flying sideways and why are you looking out the side window " then your not really using a slip to it's full advantage.

Glenn

 

[mam90]

I know more than one ATP pilot that has told me slips are dangerous (they crab and kick in crosswind)

Depends on the airplane, but the crab and kick isn’t because slips are dangerous. With highly swept wings or engines under the wing you run the risk of dragging something on the runway in a slip. The Global Express fleet had this problem and really emphasized crab and kick, but not because a slip is dangerous. A lot of ATP’s probably haven’t done a slip since their primary training. I like slips......

 

[bodumatau]

I should try this in a Super Cub with full flaps. In a J3 you can enter a full rudder slip, then slowly pull the stick full aft. It will not stall. I really didn't believe it until I tried it.

I admire the caution of folks who go to 4000' agl for spin training. If you get into a spin in a Cub that costs you a thousand feet, you really need to study recovery techniques. That is, unless you want multiple turn spins.

When I teach spins, the recovery starts right after the spin has developed - usuallly a half to 3/4 turn. The hardest part is getting a clean entry.

with Keller flaps my BCSC Super Cub slips very poorly, running out of rudder and becoming an clumsy sideways flying manoeuvre if you want to keep it in a straight line.
so I keep the flaps off or only at one notch when needing to slip into somewhere, hand dropping off throttle onto flap lever as I straighten out of the slip and then gently pull full flaps, takes some practice to keep the airspeed alive as once you pull the keller flaps at low energy (low airspeed) your speed bleeds off quickly.

with slats and keller flaps the slip sadly becomes almost redundant as I can descend steeper with full flaps than I can in a slip, it would only be necessary to slip if I had flap failure.

on my decathlon and Jungmann which had no flaps the slips were daily bread, especially in the Jungmann where forward vision was very poor.

Bob, I always prefer to err on the VERY safe side when suggesting other pilots try something new. its not only about being able to recover from the spin...... they might be on the wrong tank and unport and engine stops just before entering that spin..... then they will be happy to have the extra thousand feet to figure it out...... or end up (highly unlikely but not impossible) in an inverted spin and struggle to figure out how to get out......foot slips past a rudder pedal in the excitement of trying a new manoeuvre and the new sneakers that you bought jams themselves wonderfully into the corner holding full rudder..... (this happened to a highly experience Extra 200 pilot I know, he ended up putting the plane down in a field so hard it took the gear off, with 7ft of fir tree in his right wing ), or any one of a million variety of anomalies that makes us humans make errors and crash.... doesn't take much effort to climb the extra 2000ft and try a few new things out.

 

[RoddyM]

Quite the thread. Lots of opinions/discussion about a pretty basic maneuver. Stall during a slip? Nose below the horizon, not going to happen. Big aggressive slip? Mostly unnecessary unless in a dead stick scenario and you’re high in close.
Worried about passenger comfort? You can do a gentle slip all the way in and they’ll hardly know it. These are non aerobatic planes, an aggressive slip requires the plane to be forced into a maneuver it doesn’t like, “forced” is the word.
Recovery from a slip, any slip, is dead simple- relax the pressure on all of the controls, in fact, let go of the controls for a moment. It is a contradiction when we’re told to always keep the ball centered. Then, out of the blue, we’re now going to send that ball way off to the side by cranking the stick and rudder in opposite directions. The actual maneuver isn’t so hard to demonstrate, it’s an “art” to explain what wasn’t “safe” is now “safe”.
Thank goodness for good instructors out there!

 

[JimParker256]

If the passenger doesn't ask "why are we flying sideways and why are you looking out the side window " then you're not really using a slip to its full advantage.

Glenn

When I was flying the 7ECA (no flaps), I made a point of explaining to any passengers (including other pilots) that I would be using a slip on final approach to scrub off any extra altitude. I would tell them how it would look and how it might feel to them, so it was never a surprise. I also announced it when I began doing the slip. No surprise, so no reaction. One guy did say "Wow, that really did feel weird like you said it would..."

My doing this goes back to my very first experience with a slip, when an "old school" instructor decided I was too high on final, and just stomped on the rudder with no warning or explanation. Boy, was HE surprised when I immediately initiated a go-around due to "uncommanded control input"... (PS - I never flew with that guy again...)

 

[JP]

Lordy, I got so addicted to doing slips in the J-3 and PA-11 that "normal" landings felt odd. No flaps, no problem!! Down we go!

The strip where I flew for years wasn't real big and had interesting obstructions at both ends (trees and wires), so you'd be-bop along in a slow approach and just as you came up on the last obstacle slip the airplane in for a nice, short landing without honking on the brakes or barreling thorough the yard yelling "whoa".

Now, the purpose of the exercise is defeated if you keep the stick too far forward and gain speed during the maneuver (that would be moi at the beginning of the season). A mentor once told me you've got to pull a long way back to get near the point of a problem and if you are paying the least amount of attention you will have plenty of warning that the AOA is a bit much. Glenn has it right--you can feel the sweet spot in the stick as to the "right" speed. Not to fast, not to slow. Just like High School.

And, yes, playing with it a bit at altitude is a great way to get a good feel for it without scaring the good folk on the ground. Keep going back slowly until it does quit. Good fun.

For good form we'd put the low wing into the wind if there was any crosswind. I like to slip left, so at the beginning of the season I go out and do some to the right until that becomes automatic again and I don't have to think "right-stick left-rudder" to do the opposite of my natural preference.

Finally, when you have a pax on board definitely give them a bit of warning as to what you are about to do. Even pilot pax. Especially smoker pilots. I've had a couple who have never experienced the maneuver, only read about it in trade mags. Those ones are the funniest. Even with a head's up. The goal is, as always, to end the day with a Big Cub Grin.

 

[Crash Jr.]

For good form we'd put the low wing into the wind if there was any crosswind. I like to slip left, so at the beginning of the season I go out and do some to the right until that becomes automatic again and I don't have to think "right-stick left-rudder" to do the opposite of my natural preference.

Now this is a good point and question from me. So, I normally slip nose right almost no matter the wind although many people have admonished me to slip nose into the wind. Now on a decent and/or gusty crosswind this puts the high wing into the wind and in my mind increases the chance of getting a gust under the wing and now having a problem fighting the upwind wing back down on short final.

Anybody have any thoughts on how to slip in a crosswind?

 

[cubdriver2]

Wing low into the wind if you want any respect.
Most folks like to slip to the throttle side, it's the most comfortable so they get lazy and always slip left.

Glenn

 

[Farmboy]

Boy, Lazy AND no respect. Now I see why Glenn.

 

[RVBottomly]

I guess I'm OCD or something. I slip one way, then the other, so both legs get the same amount of exercise. But wing low into crosswind simply because it always seemed right. (Not really looking for respect)

 

[Utah-Jay]

Left wing low and I can hold that center line perfectly, right wing low and I always seem to drift right. I need practice on the right wing low

 

[bob turner]

We measured it with my J3 - open door and window on right side, closed window on the left, and right wing down got us coming down half again as fast. Not true of all cubs, but maybe worth a couple trials with a stopwatch?

These are full rudder slips with nose below the horizon equal amounts. Fast, but we bleed the speed off rapidly before releasing the rudder.

 

[courierguy]

I slip a lot I suppose because I always come into my 400' one way uphill strip high, and it's a great way to dump altitude quick. Slow actually, losing altitude WITHOUT gaining speed.

I've been playing around with fooling the dog, by making a straight in approach from very high up, all throttled back, and slipping it to the max, with full flaps. I just fairly recently noticed my digital VSI gauge doesn't bottom out/stop at 2,000 FPM like the old style steam gauge types I've had in the past, as I can show past that. When I do it right, the dog doesn't hear me come in, and I can catch him napping. When I do it wrong, this happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYFM44eWyRc

 

[DENNY]

Now this is a good point and question from me. So, I normally slip nose right almost no matter the wind although many people have admonished me to slip nose into the wind. Now on a decent and/or gusty crosswind this puts the high wing into the wind and in my mind increases the chance of getting a gust under the wing and now having a problem fighting the upwind wing back down on short final.

Anybody have any thoughts on how to slip in a crosswind?

Sooooo are you slipping to loose altitude, adjust for crosswind, or better vis?? I thinks this may get back to my crab and kick post. Did they know you had a slip in mind, not a crab? In the Pacer I would normally slip nose right because of better view. But always landed with wing low on windward side. You want to be able to slip in both directions because of crosswind. On the few times I am at correct altitude on final With a crosswind I just cross control (forward slip) to maintain centerline. In the pacer nose right gave me a much better view I just made sure I adjusted for centerline and put proper wing down on landing. Without a crosswind a hard slip will take you off centerline. Just be prepared to slip to the other direction to correct if needed. See previous post on altitude when learning the transition.
DENNY

 

[BC12D-4-85]

Kick the crab here

Gary

 

[Gordon Misch]

Full-rudder slip with full flaps, initiated with a near-knife-edge = drop like an anvil. Love it! On the other hand, a highly experienced buddy sez if you gotta slip you planned poorly. I told him I'd ignore that. I think he's jealous cuz his 180 can't slip as effectively as a Cub:lol:.

 

[TVATIVAK71]

I think a slip is an great tool. I do whenever I need it....in our Cub and C-140.

A long time ago I watched a high time captain (long since retired and probably reading this) end up a bit high on a visual into JNU. I was new to the plane (737-200) as we were crossing Barlow Cove and I was thinking we were going around, he ever so gently slipped it back to his desired path and continued on. I had never seen it done in a jet before. Nobody complained about it. Over the years I seen some old timers use it but even then a few admitted it was a bad way to recover from a poorly planned approach. One thing to use it in a GA plane another can of worms using it in a passenger jet. Can you do it “Of Course” that being said it’s frowned upon. At work anyway.

 

[mam90]

I was in the back of a 727 years ago, running late with an over zealous Captain. Over explained everything on the PA about the mechanical we were experiencing, that it wasn’t really a big deal to fly with it inop but he was required to fix it, walked us through what was wrong, how they fix it, sign off, etc... Then told us he was going to get us back on schedule, he hated being late, not to worry. Fast taxi, rolling takeoff, told us he’d stay at lower altitude to go faster. Flaps, gear come out and the next thing I know we’re in an aggressive slip toward the runway in SLC. Laying sideways in the seat, people screaming. I was not impressed.

 

[skywagon8a]

It is possible to slip a B-727 without anyone being aware. Imagine slipping with full flaps and the speed brakes extended! You can almost beat a rock to the ground!

 

[JP]

cgnesin took some video a few years back of slipping into the "back yard" at Luckeys Landing. To be fair I'll post the links to both of them to show that every time one thinks they are the end all be all the bottom drops out.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aOrKlcCyKM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_q1HezlPZk

Good fun. Hard to beat a really basic Cub.

 

[Utah-Jay]

During my recent training, yes fairly newly minted Sport Pilot here, my cousin who is a Delta Pilot and retired Air Force A-10 pilot told me about slipping the 767 in at Lagos, Nigeria. Said the wings really flutter with the winglets. He did say he warned the co-pilot and officers prior to doing so.

He got his Tailwheel endorsement a couple of years ago and used the words “monkey” and “football” to describe his learning a tailwheel. I laughed as I learned in a tailwheel... I know that is not very 2020 of me, but that is how I learned.

 

[mam90]

Timing is everything- turned on Smithsonian channel this morning, and Air Disasters was on. One of the incidents they covered was the Gimli glider. It showed and discussed the captain putting the 767 into a major slip to make the drag strip....

 

[Farmboy]

Both of the historical glider events were quite the deal. They were everyday hero’s doing their job. Today likely be fired on the spot.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

 

[hotrod180]

.... I think he's jealous cuz his 180 can't slip as effectively as a Cub:lol:.

I do side-slips when required for a crosswind (or is that a forward slip? I can't ever remember which is which :???: ).
But I don't think I've ever done an "I'm too high" slip to increase the descent rate in my C180, or my old C150TD.
What works well for me is to pull the nose up & get it slowed down to just a bit above stall speed.
Works great, airplane comes down like a brick.
(Tommy Lee Jones does this in the space shuttle sim in "Space Cowboys",
as did Clint Eastwood later in the real shuttle--
added a lot of credibility to the movie for me)
Doesn't this maneuver work in flap-less airplanes?
I rarely if ever see it discussed on forums like this one.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

It's sometimes hard to convince others that first climbing can later increase descent. I do it often but there is a lag involved as speed bleeds. Being convinced it works first helps. Had only one Old Timer instructor demonstrate the procedure. The rest wanted to either dirty up the plane or slip.

Gary

 

[bob turner]

Hotrod - me too. They say that the difference in nomenclature has to do with what you are trying to accomplish, not what the aircraft is doing.

And yes, a J3 without flaps will come down at about 40 indicated almost as steeply as in a full rudder slip.

As for the crab and kick? I have seen it done once - in a 737 - and not successfully. FO was an Air Force guy, and I had flown as his FO on another airline. He briefed it, I said ok, and we did not damage anything. But, yikes!

I am not skilled enough to even dream of doing that in a Cub or 180 - and remember, there will be days when, due to crosswinds, I will be the only pilot flying at the world's 11th busiest GA airport.

 

[Crash Jr.]

HAnd yes, a J3 without flaps will come down at about 40 indicated almost as steeply as in a full rudder slip.

I've experimented with this quite a bit and it just comes out of the air so much faster at 45 and a good slip. Plus I feel that carrying 5 extra MPH and slipping versus getting the plane on the bleeding edge of stalling...the slip seems safer.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

"Add all the gust and half the crosswind" has been suggested for the approach speed, slips or not, if stalling or high rate of descent is a concern. Slipping in calm air versus breezy condx is a different bird. Plus, floating around near the stall tends to move the plane off the flight path versus driving it to the runway with good control surface action. Results vary by aircraft and pilot.

Gary

 

[Gordon Misch]

I did some experimenting in my -12 from a repeatable location, altitude, and airspeed, all with full flaps and power at idle.

I compared distance to landing by reducing speed to near-stall, and by diving at nearly max flap speed. The dive resulted in more rapid energy dissipation than near-stall, i.e. reduced glide distance. I attribute it to drag varying as speed squared. So even though drag coefficient is probably less in the dive as compared to the high AOA while slow, the speed part of drag apparently more than compensated.

A very experienced buddy suggested I give it a try. I was skeptical, but he was right. It's now part of my toolbox.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

In general I think the nose up-slow-descend method versus the dive dirty varies by aircraft weight and configuration. Take a heavy dirty C-185 on floats with flaps hanging and for me the dive dirty ended up still needing more energy dissipation (momentum) to land precisely, a technique that takes time to perfect especially with any wind shear. I could do better by first slowing to a V-speed then establish a stabilized approach ending in a minimum flare. With the Cubs or others being lighter and given to more floating around unless the air was smooth I prefer speed then slip if required. Having some air still flowing over the controls inspires confidence.

Gary