Stalls, Students, what how are you teaching or learning?

[Cardiff Kook]

Primary wasnt that long ago for me so here was my experience.

I def was afraid of stalls- probably because of all the warnings about stall/spin fatalities. You also dont get spin recovery training in primary- at least anything significant so you think “if this thing spins I am toast.”

I have had the super cub for 18 months. At 2000 AGL I am comfortable doing power on/off stalls in all configurations. Probably because i have done alot of them in THAT airplane.

I have had the 185 for 3 months. I am comfortable doing power off/low power stalls. I do those alot in landing config. I am a bit scarred of trying a power on stall in that plane without an instructor- though I do have plans to go test stall speeds in varying power configurations with an instructor who owns a 185 also. My fear i think is around the torque from the engine at full power doing something i dont expect. Perhaps unfounded. I really should be able to do power on stalls confidently at this point.

I did an upset prevention and recovery course. 3 days. I was taught in primary to lower the nose and go full power at first sign of stall. Instructor in UPTR pointed out just a tiny push on the nose was all that was needed to recover from stall. Add a bit of power of course as needed. That course was helpful.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

I'd like to ask a general question. How many reading this thread have unintentionally, or LOC-I, stalled an aircraft? Not the 2' above the runway that resulted in an unexpected arrival...just in flight while maneuvering and not during slow flight training. Never, some, often, that kind of basic question.

Gary

 

[sj]

The flight instructor community around here is about 23 years old, a lot of the time female hardbody, with 250 total hours. Zero tailwheel time. That places a burden on the students - study hard, and don't fall in lust with your instructor.

Where I teach, about 1/3 of our flight instructors are women (we have a mandate to get to 40% female aviators on staff) - all under thirty - and are some of the best instructors I have been around. We do have a higher standard for instructors than a lot of schools, and there are crappy instructors of all genders.

Cockpit chemistry is not new and the handsome young male instructors have been causing women to swoon for decades.

sj

 

[skywagon8a]

Primary wasn't that long ago for me so here was my experience.

I def was afraid of stalls- probably because of all the warnings about stall/spin fatalities. You also dont get spin recovery training in primary- at least anything significant so you think “if this thing spins I am toast.”


I have had the 185 for 3 months. I am comfortable doing power off/low power stalls. I do those alot in landing config. I am a bit scarred of trying a power on stall in that plane without an instructor- though I do have plans to go test stall speeds in varying power configurations with an instructor who owns a 185 also. My fear i think is around the torque from the engine at full power doing something i don't expect. Perhaps unfounded. I really should be able to do power on stalls confidently at this point.

Primary for me was longer than 6 decades ago. One day after solo when I had about 10 hours, a substitute instructor went flying with me. Near the end of the lesson he said. "I'll show you how to get down in a hurry". Then without saying anything else, we were in a spin with me trying to climb in the back seat of the 7AC. After that, I told my instructor about the incident. He was not happy. We went up and he taught me how to do spins until I had no more fear. They were just another maneuver. I never saw or heard of that other instructor again. They took spin instruction out of the training syllabus except for instructors, a few years after that. In my opinion, that was a mistake for the FAA. After that when I was an instructor, I always taught students spins if the airplane was approved for it. And sometimes even if it wasn't. One student actually came to me later and thanked me for saving his life, because he accidently got into a spin and knew how to recover. There was an accident near here when a student was up practicing in a 150 on the day before his private flight test. He spun into the ground and died. No spin training, even in a spinable airplane.

In your 185, doing a full power stall could roll the airplane into a left turn spin. It's not a big deal. Just close the throttle along with opposite rudder and recover from the dive. I understand it will be frightening but at altitude is not dangerous. Go up with your 185 instructor and practice these (not the spin) until you are comfortable. If you are frightened about any maneuver, you can be dangerous to yourself because you will not be able to automatically make the proper recovery. Remember when Cessna was flight testing the 185 they did every type of spin imaginable. The flight controls, flaps and power were in every conceivable combination during these tests. In all these combinations the 185 passed the FAA spin requirements. Then they placarded with "Intentional spins prohibited". The key word is Intentional. Accidental spins are recoverable. Avoidance at low altitude is your responsibility.

 

[aktango58]

Cockpit chemistry is not new and the handsome young male instructors have been causing women to swoon for decades.

sj

And now we know the answer about you and Laura!

I don't have the experience in jet trainers. I have experience in Otters, Caravans and many down to the 120 Cessna. Most recover from a departure stall with a release of pressure on the yoke. Most recover from approach stall with some pressure release and a power application.

The Otter, if a deep stall, is quite the handful, I recall I was looking up at the ground for a few seconds.

But, the PA-12, even on floats, does not require a full control input with the nose pointed 30+ degrees down to recover. In fact, it takes a while to get the plane to quit diving when you do that.

Breaking the stall in a large plane empty compared and a large plane full, (Ok, even 180 size) takes different amounts of recovery inputs also. Another post that should be taught in transitions.

I appreciate all the great information here. Maybe it is time to get back into instructing before we lose stick and rudder to computer cookie cutter school instruction.

 

[RedOwlAirfield]

I'd like to ask a general question. How many reading this thread have unintentionally, or LOC-I, stalled an aircraft? Not the 2' above the runway that resulted in an unexpected arrival...just in flight while maneuvering and not during slow flight training. Never, some, often, that kind of basic question.

Gary

I have to cop to this one.

I was still a student and had a lesson set for the afternoon of the day of a big deal test of some sort. I actually studied after I got home from work at 0300. Not a good idea to go flying, and it was suggested to me by the instructor. I fronted off.

So we're flying along doing slow flight (at a safe altitude of course) above a feature known as "Iron Mountain." Alert to the spinning compass, I lost attention to the airspeed and the 150 snapped off into the neatest little spin you've ever seen. Fortunately I had spin training and so recovered successfully. The instructor didn't touch a thing. He just asked, "You ready to go back now?"

I like to think I learned the lesson that had to teach. Just this morning I cancelled a planned flight because I was up most of the night with a sick wife - my wife coincidentally. Self awareness ought to create humility. Realizing you're capable of stupidity is the biggest safety achievement any of us ever make.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

^^^^Thanks for sharing. Fear, or at least a caution or awareness about stalling, covers quite a range of potential emotion and experience. The OP asked about familiarizing oneself or others about stalls...like how to do that. Comments relative to that follow. My point in asking if inadvertent stalling was common after initial training was to see if it was routine or rare, if at all. No answer was expected, just some personal reflection about the past flying.

I don't recall stalling unless intended....others may have not been as fortunate if the NTSB records regarding loss of control in flight (LOC-I) reflect what happened in an accident. #1Killer they say. Not learning what's involved beforehand seems misguided at best.

Gary

 

[Gordon Misch]

I don't recall stalling unless intended

I forgot that you asked that previously. Yes, once. Plenty of altitude, in a steep turn. Broke and tried to spin. Fortunately, I'd been trained in spins, so recovery was automatic.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

^^^^Trained and experienced to some degree might save lives. Request upset training if available.

Next question: What's the loss of control in flight rate of instructors versus general aviation non-CFI pilots? I'm curious.

Gary

 

[bob turner]

I have really tried to "inadvertently" stall. I have met with no success.
I teach a complete sequence of stalls ranging right up to full power full flap, but have yet to simulate, let alone teach, the Moose Stall. Maybe the Decathlon is too docile, and I should be using the VG-equipped Super Cub?
Even so, I am carful to not load up in 60 degree banks close to the ground. I do steep banks all the time, but pull back with one finger.

 

[GreggB]

I'm a big fan of this short 8 minute video on spin demonstrations. He makes a great point about training spins not reflecting reality of accident spins. And shows how to demo more realistic spins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeI2LlEzOT4

 

[BC12D-4-85]

A Moose Stall> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwJvZ0hWyZQ

Gary

 

[mvivion]

A Moose Stall> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwJvZ0hWyZQ

Gary

Not even close Gary. Look up Art Warbelow, he can tell you what a moose stall is. And this isn’t it.

Anyone who gets so crossed upas tha close to the ground seriously needs to get back to basics. And BTW, it turns out that while loss of control is indeed the top killer of pilots, a much higher percentage of those occur on DEPARTURE as opposed to arrival. Climbing, nose high, high power, bleeding speed…..

MTV

 

[BC12D-4-85]

Not even close Gary. Look up Art Warbelow, he can tell you what a moose stall is. And this isn’t it.

Anyone who gets so crossed upas tha close to the ground seriously needs to get back to basics. And BTW, it turns out that while loss of control is indeed the top killer of pilots, a much higher percentage of those occur on DEPARTURE as opposed to arrival. Climbing, nose high, high power, bleeding speed…..

MTV

Yea Mike we've all heard about Warbelow over and over. And this is a typical Moose Stall (stall with inside skid)) but with prompt corrective action. Bill Lentsch did one with Fred Andersen onboard in a Cub - some rotor effect some stall. He Just kept it rolling until upright again. They might have sacred a few salmon below but that was all. Thanks for the rest.

Gary

 

[mvivion]

Yea Mike we've all heard about Warbelow over and over. And this is a typical Moose Stall (stall with inside skid)) but with prompt corrective action. Bill Lentsch did one with Fred Andersen onboard in a Cub - some rotor effect some stall. He Just kept it rolling until upright again. They might have sacred a few salmon below but that was all. Thanks for the rest.

Gary

Gary,

I'd got into something exactly like Art describes in a 185, trying to get a look at a radio collared wolf. I was circling and gradually descending, when the plane started an uncommanded roll toward wings level. Ball in the cage, I tightened up the roll, but the plane wanted to go wings level, so I rolled to wings level, wondering what the hell that was. Went back and found the wolf.

After I talked to Art, I became convinced I was in the same thing he got into, but exited the maneuver before it broke.

At the University, I tried to duplicate this with a number of students. I succeeded once. It was cold: -10 F, absolutely smooth air, no turbulence, we were circling and slowly descending, when the plane started an un commanded roll toward wings level. I double checked the ball, which was smack in the middle....NO skid, NO slip. I had the student tighten up the controls into the turn, and after another half turn or so, it broke hard over the top, entered a spin, quickly exited the spin with rudder, but was almost pure vertical and accelerating. We lost between 400 and 500 feet in the program.

This was almost precisely what Art describes happened to him. I believe him, and I'm convinced this phenomenon has to do with encountering one's own wake vortices. Exactly how that is happening, I'm not sure, but cold, dense air, perfectly calm air, circling and settling.....describes a lot of fatal accidents I know of.

And, again, the ball, which was mounted on the top of the glare shield on our Top Cub, was dead center when it broke.

MTV

 

[S2D]

When all else fails ( or at the first feel of trouble) shove the stick forward hard. Its not how hard you shove it, its how long you keep it there. Split second is all it usually takes.

(that ought to create a lot of gnashing here)

 

[skywagon8a]

Mike and Gary,
This is sounding something like Settling with power in a helicopter. Generally descending vertically near the ground in a hover, the rotor wash is disturbing the air below the helicopter basically thinning it to a point where it doesn't have enough density to support the weigh of the helicopter. The pilot keeps increasing rotor pitch and power which further disturbs the air below. The helicopter continues to descend out of control. The way out is forward stick in order to fly away from the column of disturbed air.

This is the same theory of a boat moving over an area of water where there is a large number of gas bubbles coming up from the seafloor. The air bubbles separates the water molecules enough so there isn't enough buoyancy left to float the boat.

In the case of the airplane circling, the downwash from the wings disturbs the stability of the smooth air. Thereby upsetting its ability to support the wing. Remember flying a perfect circle in smooth air, knowing you were perfect when you hit your own propwash after the 360?

 

[BC12D-4-85]

All good Mike and Pete. There's a few things there that ought to be taught or survived...uncoordinated flight (mainly skid), encountering a terrain generated rotor, and like Art going over and over, Pat Valkenburg, Mike, and others experienced by hitting one's own wake. I've hit mine a few in winter but never had more than 45* upset, just rolled into it but was prepared to dutch roll around.

How do we prepare the new for this? Are they aware that simply avoiding potential upset events may not save them if it eventually happens? That FAA link I offered above kind'a sums up a potentially lethal response to unexpected events:

"Unexpected events – especially those occurring close to the ground – require rapid appropriate action. However, humans are subject to a “startle response” when faced with an unexpected emergency situation and may delay or initiate inappropriate action in response to an emergency."

Not a CFI so will ask....how would you prepare a new flyer to quickly/properly react and not delay?

Gary

 

[mvivion]

Gary, the key is in avoidance in my opinion.

Now, I am a firm believer in upset recovery training as well, but frankly, if you get into a serious upset close to the ground, it may not end well.

Airspeed is life when low, and proper coordination should be constant and disciplined….no shoving a wing out of the way with rudder to grab a quick look at something….take the time to come back and do it right.

Finally, avoid low level maneuvering flight when possible.

And, at a safe altitude, learn as much as possible about the stall characteristics of EVERY airplane you fly.

These days, I have no reason to do multiple turns around a wolf.

MTV

 

[BC12D-4-85]

I've ridden with and known pilots that remove headsets (or disable noise reduction) when maneuvering slow or landing required sensory input. The airplane will communicate with you if you let it. The feel in hand-foot-butt changes, sound changes, and they can tell you it's nearing a stall if you allow it in.

Gary

 

[mvivion]

Oh, there’s no doubt an airplane will talk to you, especially when slow. Takes a while to learn the language, but well worth the time to learn. It’s the reason I refused to fly the Found Bushawk operationally. Only plane I ever met that gave little if any indication of an impending stall. No way I wanted to work that plane.

MTV

 

[skywagon8a]

It’s the reason I refused to fly the Found Bushawk operationally. Only plane I ever met that gave little if any indication of an impending stall. No way I wanted to work that plane.

MTV

You too? I have a friend who had a Found Expedition on Aerocet amphibs. I went with him once. While approaching to land on the water, I thought we were a bit slow at speeds higher than the 185 but since I had never been in the plane before I didn't say anything. In the meantime he was fiddling with that damned audio gear alarm. Suddenly the bottom fell out and we landed very firmly. Fortunately no damage was done other than to both our egos. Point being, the signs on that airplane, as you say, are very poor.

 

[aktango58]

Were those Generation two of the Founds? About late 90's or 2000? The factory demo I flew would not slow down well, and yes it did just decide to fall for me.


Back to stalls and training- Pushing forward all the way is a good impulse, but when it has begun flying again before you get there, you can stop pushing and let it fly, correct? Cubs usually want to fly.

I agree with the discussion on human nature, and I think that was my desire to discuss this. I believe without proper training into full stalls and allowing students to become comfortable with recovery, to the point that they are relaxed about it, when it does come as a surprise the tendency is to freeze up with fear. A momentary freeze up at the controls at the wrong time can be fatal.

Years and years ago I was at the Holister Airshow, and I believe it was Cubscout I was talking to. He told me to watch everyone depart- they would most all be trying to show how good they are at short takeoffs and steep climbs. He said that was the most dangerous time at an airshow.

That stuck with me. It is one thing to jump it off the ground, but sustained steep climbs need strict attention to airspeed.

Again, I will note, that as the size of the plane increases, the load will have more affect on speeds and require lower pitch up to maintain speeds. Landing is the same thing training a 172 pilot in a 206 light, then have him fly it with a load is always fun watching them try to maintain speed on final. If they allow the speed to decrease it becomes a real effort to get it back.

 

[skywagon8a]

Were those Generation two of the Founds? About late 90's or 2000? The factory demo I flew would not slow down well, and yes it did just decide to fall for me.

My friend's Found was one of the very last ones built before they moved to NZ.

 

[bob turner]

I have one student who climbs at Vy plus ten. Maybe he has heard the story above.

Is an engine failure at Vx more dangerous than an engine failure at 80 in a Cub at low altitude over a densely populated area of busy roads, stores, and full parking lots?

I practice engine failures at Vx. I pre-brief altitudes for the turn. I expect to be successful, unless run too far upwind.

I get the feeling that the departure stalls are due to pulling back when the engine quits. The airplane (most airplanes) will pitch down all by itself, then the pilot yanks back, and “snap.”

opinion.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

There can be a small lag between the nose dropping and the hand on stick or yoke following - my experience. That can delay a decrease in AOA. Not sure why. Might be a normal reaction to maintaining level flight briefly followed by "no, do this instead"

Gary

 

[mvivion]

I have one student who climbs at Vy plus ten. Maybe he has heard the story above.

Is an engine failure at Vx more dangerous than an engine failure at 80 in a Cub at low altitude over a densely populated area of busy roads, stores, and full parking lots?

I practice engine failures at Vx. I pre-brief altitudes for the turn. I expect to be successful, unless run too far upwind.

I get the feeling that the departure stalls are due to pulling back when the engine quits. The airplane (most airplanes) will pitch down all by itself, then the pilot yanks back, and “snap.”

opinion.

Bob,

I assume that when you say you are teaching stalls in cubs at Vx, that you are at full flaps, full power and begin the pull at at 45? That is Vx in a SC, and my experience is if you kill the power there, the airplane immediately stalls.

MTV

 

[aktango58]

I have one student who climbs at Vy plus ten. Maybe he has heard the story above.

Is an engine failure at Vx more dangerous than an engine failure at 80 in a Cub at low altitude over a densely populated area of busy roads, stores, and full parking lots?

I practice engine failures at Vx. I pre-brief altitudes for the turn. I expect to be successful, unless run too far upwind.

I get the feeling that the departure stalls are due to pulling back when the engine quits. The airplane (most airplanes) will pitch down all by itself, then the pilot yanks back, and “snap.”

opinion.

I was above VX when the cub engine died at 100'. Took serious conscious effort to push forward far enough to keep airspeed, and I was shocked at how far down the nose had to come to keep it going. The adage that you will land just about where you see over the cowl is not valid. It is going DOWN fast.

Climb speeds- I usually climb at above Vy once clear of anything. Better cooling, and most of my work is paid to get stuff from one location to another. Higher speeds give me faster time over the ground, better visibility and again cooling for longer engine life. Longevity of the engine is a a financial factor for the company, but I want it go go beyond TBO. If changed at TBO that means I have not had a catastrophic failure and had to put it somewhere I did not want to.

We train to get speed up once airborne, and more when clear of obstacles. Energy with speed and lower nose bleeds slower than energy with altitude having to roll the nose way down.

 

[mvivion]

Were those Generation two of the Founds? About late 90's or 2000? The factory demo I flew would not slow down well, and yes it did just decide to fall for me.


Back to stalls and training- Pushing forward all the way is a good impulse, but when it has begun flying again before you get there, you can stop pushing and let it fly, correct? Cubs usually want to fly.

I agree with the discussion on human nature, and I think that was my desire to discuss this. I believe without proper training into full stalls and allowing students to become comfortable with recovery, to the point that they are relaxed about it, when it does come as a surprise the tendency is to freeze up with fear. A momentary freeze up at the controls at the wrong time can be fatal.

Years and years ago I was at the Holister Airshow, and I believe it was Cubscout I was talking to. He told me to watch everyone depart- they would most all be trying to show how good they are at short takeoffs and steep climbs. He said that was the most dangerous time at an airshow.

That stuck with me. It is one thing to jump it off the ground, but sustained steep climbs need strict attention to airspeed.

Again, I will note, that as the size of the plane increases, the load will have more affect on speeds and require lower pitch up to maintain speeds. Landing is the same thing training a 172 pilot in a 206 light, then have him fly it with a load is always fun watching them try to maintain speed on final. If they allow the speed to decrease it becomes a real effort to get it back.

Yes, maybe 2000 or so. The first one also exhibited an ugly break at the stall, like a 60 to 80 degree roll off.

I was about fifteen minutes into my first flight in the thing with check airman, when that happened. I asked him if that was “normal”. No, no, you must have done that. Told him “your controls, YOU try one”. Same thing, power off, straight ahead stall, hard left break.
I said, “that’s all I need to see, let’s head for the barn”.

Maint. called the factory, who sent a guy to ANC to rig it…..same result.
Months later, they hired the guy who did flight test on the original Founds to come up and rig and fly it. He cranked one flap down some (one piece wing: No way to rig a wing) and announced good to go.

I flew it again and did a number of stalls with absolutely no aerodynamic warning of a stall.

I then announced to the Check Airman that I was going to do a falling leaf stall with it. He told me if I wanted to do that, I could first land at that strip right over there, he’d get out, and I could do whatever stall I wanted. This was a pretty brave and experienced guy. Told me everything I needed to know about that plane.

MTV

 

[BC12D-4-85]

I see the Found on floats still in Fairbanks has VG's. Nicki wasn't very supportive of them when asked. But apparently they'll eat 55 gallon drums ok.

Gary