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Short Turn Coordinator

bofusfly

Registered User
N. Georgia
New Owner Intro and Turn Coordinator Question

Well as you can see this is my first post after lurking here for years. I've owned several J-3s and Super Cubs throughout the last 35 or so years, but a few weeks ago with Chip Allen's help and advice my wife and I became the proud new owners of N380CC, a 2001 Piper/CubCrafters PA-18. As usual I can't seem to leave well enough alone and I'm changing the panel up a bit. The plane has the square CubCrafters panel with the standard 6 pack layout for the flight instruments. My problem is I can't seem to find a turn coordinator that is short enough in depth to fit in the normal lower left hole. The shortest I can find has a depth of 4.0 inches behind the panel and I only have space for about 3.25. Before researching every new and old turn coordinator ever made, I thought I would throw it out here to see if any of the old (or new) hands here might know where I can find the worlds shortest turn coordinator. I know I can move the panel out some or make a new panel but finding the right instrument would be the easiest. Thanks in advance for any help and I'm looking forward to meeting some of you at next years gatherings. Terry Presley
 
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My recommendation: Forget the Turn Coordinator altogether, and install a slip-skid instrument TOP CENTER on your panel. A turn coordinator is not required equipment in a Cub, and unless you're planning on flying IFR (which is not approved on the PA 18 Type Certificate, by the way) there's no need for a TC.

Most pilots, however, can at least initially, benefit from a slip/skid ball mounted high on the panel to keep them honest in these rudder loving airplanes.

Here's one from ACS: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/winterslipindicator.php

Rieker makes my favorite, however: [URL="http://www.riekerinc.com/M-Inclinometer/1023w1.htm"]http://www.riekerinc.com/M-Inclinometer/1023w1.htm

MTV


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Congrats on the new bird! Glad to know of another Cub owner in Georgia. Hope to have my rebuild completed around the first of the year and when done, would love to meet up and do some flying!
 
careful, here, folks. A T&B or a TC is sometimes a required VFR equipment.

Here's the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the PA-18: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/ab203ab0e89895af862572090071f7cd/$FILE/1A2.pdf

And, here's FAR 91.205, Required Equipment for VFR:
[h=5]§ 91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.[/h] (a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.
(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Airspeed indicator.
(2) Altimeter.
(3) Magnetic direction indicator.
(4) Tachometer for each engine.
(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.
(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.
(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.
(8) Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.
(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable landing gear.
(11) For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with part 23 of this chapter, an approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operation of the aircraft may continue to a location where repairs or replacement can be made.
(12) If the aircraft is operated for hire over water and beyond power-off gliding distance from shore, approved flotation gear readily available to each occupant and, unless the aircraft is operating under part 121 of this subchapter, at least one pyrotechnic signaling device. As used in this section, “shore” means that area of the land adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark and excludes land areas which are intermittently under water.
(13) An approved safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device for each occupant 2 years of age or older.
(14) For small civil airplanes manufactured after July 18, 1978, an approved shoulder harness for each front seat. The shoulder harness must be designed to protect the occupant from serious head injury when the occupant experiences the ultimate inertia forces specified in §23.561(b)(2) of this chapter. Each shoulder harness installed at a flight crewmember station must permit the crewmember, when seated and with the safety belt and shoulder harness fastened, to perform all functions necessary for flight operations. For purposes of this paragraph—
(i) The date of manufacture of an airplane is the date the inspection acceptance records reflect that the airplane is complete and meets the FAA-approved type design data; and
(ii) A front seat is a seat located at a flight crewmember station or any seat located alongside such a seat.
(15) An emergency locator transmitter, if required by §91.207.
(16) For normal, utility, and acrobatic category airplanes with a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of 9 or less, manufactured after December 12, 1986, a shoulder harness for—
(i) Each front seat that meets the requirements of §23.785 (g) and (h) of this chapter in effect on December 12, 1985;
(ii) Each additional seat that meets the requirements of §23.785(g) of this chapter in effect on December 12, 1985.
(17) For rotorcraft manufactured after September 16, 1992, a shoulder harness for each seat that meets the requirements of §27.2 or §29.2 of this chapter in effect on September 16, 1991.
(c) Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section.
(2) Approved position lights.
(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet the anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation white. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.
(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.
(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.
(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight.

So, show me where a Turn Coordinator is required for a PA-18, please.

MTV
 
Thanks MTV. I have a full gyro panel already including an Winter W-1115 slip indicator in a 2 1/4 case to put in a spare hole if I can't find the needed turn coordinator. The goal again here is to try and get the 6 flight instruments in the correct holes. I just like the way the standard layout looks, that's all. Thanks again, Terry
 
Here ya go:

Part VI - General Operating and Flight Rules, Canadian Aviation Regulations 2011-1, Subpart 5 - Aircraft Requirements, Content last revised: 2009/12/01

605.15 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of VFR OTT flight unless it is equipped with

(a) the equipment referred to in paragraphs 605.14(c) to (j);

(b) a sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure;

(c) a means of preventing malfunction caused by icing for each airspeed indicating system;

(d) a gyroscopic direction indicator or a stabilized magnetic direction indicator;

(e) an attitude indicator;

(f) subject to subsection (2), a turn and slip indicator or turn coordinator;
...


605.16 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of night VFR flight, unless it is equipped with

(a) the equipment referred to in paragraphs 605.14(c) to (n);

(b) a sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure;

(c) subject to subsection (2), a turn and slip indicator or turn coordinator;
...

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part6-605-2438.htm
 
Bofusfly, seems the group is more into looking for a discussion than answering your request since they have diverted to other topics. :(

Back to topic: anybody know of a shallow turn coordinator? Less than 3.5" deep.

Sharp
 
Bofusfly, seems the group is more into looking for a discussion than answering your request since they have diverted to other topics. :(

Back to topic: anybody know of a shallow turn coordinator? Less than 3.5" deep.

Sharp
Thank you Sharp, my thoughts exactly. Terry
 
Terry

Are you going to the chili fly in at GE05 on Sat?
Look fwd to meeting you.
Lou
Hi Lou. Unfortunately I'm out of town this weekend. It's a shame to miss it since I'm based only 3 miles away at GA23 which is Greg Wyatt's place. Perhaps we've met there before at one of his gatherings. If not, I'm looking forward to it as well. Terry
 
I know of at least one TC that's only 3.5" deep (Trutrak), but don't recommend it because its (fixed blue/brown) background could easily lead the pilot to believe he's looking at an artificial horizon image. In my humble view all TC's ought to be banned because their (tactical view) displays are counterintuitive (they show the airplane as a remote object, rather than an extension of the pilot, as does the AH), and because they lead to cross-control input (e.g. a rudder mistrim will prompt the pilot to apply opposite aileron). A T&B, on the other hand, is pilot-friendly, because it shows turn, not bank. Just my 2c.
 
I know of at least one TC that's only 3.5" deep (Trutrak), but don't recommend it because its (fixed blue/brown) background could easily lead the pilot to believe he's looking at an artificial horizon image. In my humble view all TC's ought to be banned because their (tactical view) displays are counterintuitive (they show the airplane as a remote object, rather than an extension of the pilot, as does the AH), and because they lead to cross-control input (e.g. a rudder mistrim will prompt the pilot to apply opposite aileron). A T&B, on the other hand, is pilot-friendly, because it shows turn, not bank. Just my 2c.
Thanks Aviator, I have a full gyro panel. I'm only trying to get the turn coordinator in its normal place. I don't think the Trutrak is certified. As far as the usefullness of a turn coordinator, if a pilot can be that easily confused by it, well maybe...................Terry
 
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You might be surprised, but a pilot, any pilot, can become confused by far less than that. At nigh, no visible horizon, no stars, no lights, throw in a minor inconsistency and things can fall apart pretty quick. One wrong input and it's not just maybe. Birgenair 301 and Flash 604 come to mind - both in VMC. Fly safe.
 
Please, again, focus. All I really need to know is if there is a short turn coordinator out there somewhere. Thanks, Terry
 
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