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Sample of paperwork (PA 12 with 160hp ) original eng. mount

R

raymondmoore

Registered User
Looking for paperwork (FAA field approval) to allow a 0-320-B2B 160 hp in a PA12. The airplane has a Kenmore STC which only covers 150 hp. The aircraft has been flying for years with the 160 engine. A FAA inspector noticed that it did not have a STC for the 160 hp engine. Is it possible to get a approval to keep the 160 engine? Or will the engine need to be replaced with the 150 to be legal. The aircraft has the original cowling and engine mount. It does have PA 18 tail feathers. Oil cooler is per Kenmore STC.

Thanks
 
I don't think the FAA will still do field approvals? 150 to 160 hp, If you know of a FAA office that will do a this field approval please let me know.

Thanks
 
You might consider talking with your fsdo and presenting the 160 HP stc to them and explain that the biggest difference is the short mount. Another option would be to redline the tach at 150HP.

Tim
 
Hi Kevin, Yes, weak climb performance was the main reason I did not buy it. 108 hp with a wood prop max climb was 450 fpm.

Call me some time.
Ray
 
My uneducated response.....
a) My Crosswinds 160hp STC is very different from your Kenmore installation. I can't imagine it would be helpful.
b) I remember the old Kenmore STC had a generic "0-320" listed. The STC was amended later to identify specific engine models. Which models are listed on your STC?
c) Field approvals are still being done in Anchorage. I just had some done a few months ago. The process seems to continually evolve. If you submitted a three year old approval today it would likely be rejected. Heck, a one year old approval may be rejected. My last few approvals received more scrutiny for punctuation and grammar than engineering content. If the mechanic plays the game he can get things approved.

Have you asked Kenmore for advice about the B2B? I bet they have some knowledge of existing approvals. They've always been helpful when I've asked.

Stewart
 
Thanks John will call Eddie Shields today if I can find his phone number.

Call or text me if you have his number or any other information.

Thanks!
Ray

559 978 1906
 
StewartB said:
My uneducated response.....
a) My Crosswinds 160hp STC is very different from your Kenmore installation. I can't imagine it would be helpful.
b) I remember the old Kenmore STC had a generic "0-320" listed. The STC was amended later to identify specific engine models. Which models are listed on your STC?
c) Field approvals are still being done in Anchorage. I just had some done a few months ago. The process seems to continually evolve. If you submitted a three year old approval today it would likely be rejected. Heck, a one year old approval may be rejected. My last few approvals received more scrutiny for punctuation and grammar than engineering content. If the mechanic plays the game he can get things approved.

Have you asked Kenmore for advice about the B2B? I bet they have some knowledge of existing approvals. They've always been helpful when I've asked.

Stewart
Click to expand...

Stewart-


It is still engineering data, which trumps any 337 you can find.

Tim
 
The Crosswinds STC requires the use of the Crosswinds mount, which is where the engineering is. That engineering is not defined or shared on the STC document, but the mount is specified. Along with other important things like the modified Supercub cowl, rear baffle oil cooler, engine baffles, exhaust, propeller specifications, etc. The same is true for the Crosswinds 180hp STC. There's no doubt that the airframe can handle the power increase. The question is whether the Kenmore installation can and how to convince the FAA, isn't it?

SB
 
StewartB said:
There's little question that the airframe can handle the power increase.

SB
Click to expand...

Yup.....the FAA said...hey if you can support the engine you can put the 160hp up front.

:drinking:

I have read the inspector book for 337's and its pretty clear that engineering data trumps 337 data. If the only thing they need to know is that a PA-12 can handle 160hp then the xwinds stc provides the pertinent data. Yes I know the CG is different and the cowling is a bit different.

The biggest problem is that there is no common sense with 99% of inspectors and the lawyers have liabilitied us from moving forward so nobody will sign anything off.

Tim
 
In fairness to Charly Center, he designed a complete firewall-forward installation and flight tested it to validate it's performance both for flight characteristics and engine operation. There's a little more to it than "supporting the engine". Engineering data needs to be applicable. At least that's how I view it.

I hope the original poster sails through the process.

SB
 
StewartB said:
In fairness to Charly Center, he designed a complete firewall-forward installation and flight tested it to validate it's performance both for flight characteristics and engine operation.
SB
Click to expand...

In fairness to Charly Center, he copied the supercub fwf, adapted the mount to the firewall and flight tested it to validate it's performance both for flight characteristics and engine operation.
 
160 STC

Charlie Center also made new cowls, which work great, added a quiet exhaust which works way better than the stock, and etc etc. including dynafocal mounts- which work well for me. Someone had to do it, as no one did it for him. 8)
 
StewartB said:
My uneducated response.....
a) My Crosswinds 160hp STC is very different from your Kenmore installation. I can't imagine it would be helpful.
b) I remember the old Kenmore STC had a generic "0-320" listed. The STC was amended later to identify specific engine models. Which models are listed on your STC?
c) Field approvals are still being done in Anchorage. I just had some done a few months ago. The process seems to continually evolve. If you submitted a three year old approval today it would likely be rejected. Heck, a one year old approval may be rejected. My last few approvals received more scrutiny for punctuation and grammar than engineering content. If the mechanic plays the game he can get things approved.

Have you asked Kenmore for advice about the B2B? I bet they have some knowledge of existing approvals. They've always been helpful when I've asked.

Stewart
Click to expand...

It won't do any good to speak with Kenmore. I called them a while back ago on information regarding their STC. They told me that the person who was in charge of that work retired and with that, they don't support the STC anymore. They will sell the STC but that is all they will do. The engines that are eligible are the "A" series and the "C" series. These specific models are listed on their STC.
 
The Engine COOLING issue is as much an issue as anything according to the FAA people I have talked to . The Kenmore install has been Field approved with a 160 HP, last one took 7 months. As far as using approved data such as Charlie's the FAA has been REQUIRING yu to purchase the STC if you are using its data. Tim You are confident with the Alternnate method of compliance & engineering data why don't YOU sign it off & return it to service and the problem is solved. Let me know I can send you a bunch more people wanting the same approval. Good Luck & Blue Skies
 
Icarus said:
The Engine COOLING issue is as much an issue as anything according to the FAA people I have talked to . The Kenmore install has been Field approved with a 160 HP, last one took 7 months. As far as using approved data such as Charlie's the FAA has been REQUIRING yu to purchase the STC if you are using its data. Tim You are confident with the Alternnate method of compliance & engineering data why don't YOU sign it off & return it to service and the problem is solved. Let me know I can send you a bunch more people wanting the same approval. Good Luck & Blue Skies
Click to expand...

I was working with a DER on getting something approved for my J-5. The first thing I did was buy every STC that was pertinant to the installation. I organized everything together and gave it to the DER. The DER said my data was very complete and he would look it over. At that point the DER got some other job and was too busy to work with me....so I never got it finished.

Just my experience.

The piece of the puzzle with the kennmore stc that I see is the fact it is only for 150 HP, which the other STC fills.

As for the 10% increase it is for 10% of the original HP, not 10% of the stc'd HP.


Tim
 
Contact Steve Krog at the Cub Club (sskrog@aol.com) and buy copies of his 337s that cover your engine and mount. He's got piles of them, and likely has at least one for your situation. Steve is at Oshkosh this week.
 
Cooling should not be an issue for this PA 12 since it has a extra oil cooler. This PA 12 was used for towing banners. Does any one have the phone number to the man from the cub club that may help me.

Thanks
Ray
 
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