Sailplane BizJet Mid Air

[plocht]

Not sure if everyone saw this amazing story:

More information here:

http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5337875

A glider pilot was able to parachute to safety after his aircraft collided with a jet over Douglas County on Monday afternoon.
A spokesman with the Federal Aviation Administration says the pilot of the Hawker XP800 jet suffered minor injuries while the co-pilot and three passengers were unharmed.
The jet landed safely at the Carson City Airport without its landing gear.
Spokesman Ian Gregor says pieces of the glider were embedded in the nose of the jet.
The jet was headed from Palomar airport north of San Diego to Reno.
As the plane was making its approach, it collided with the glider at about 16-thousand feet.
The jet made an emergency landing at an airport at Carson City at 3:18 p-m.
The jet was made by Raytheon in 1998 and is capable of transporting up to eight passengers at speeds of up to five-hundred miles an hour.
Channel 2 News' Kristen Walthers is at the Carson City Airport and will have the latest details coming up on Channel 2 News at 11:00.

 

[Randy]

Sailplane and jet collide

The reporter wrote.....

A glider pilot was able to parachute to safety after his aircraft collided with a jet over Douglas County on Monday afternoon

Its been a while since I have taken any FAR tests...but doesn't a "glider" and a balloon have the "right of way" over a powered aircraft?
Maybe it should have read "a jet collided with a glider"

Randy

 

[Steve Pierce]

Weren't they both in controlled airspace at that altitude?

 

[kase]

With out looking at the map its probably Class E airspace.

e. Types of Class E Airspace:

1. Surface area designated for an airport. When designated as a surface area for an airport, the airspace will be configured to contain all instrument procedures.

2. Extension to a surface area. There are Class E airspace areas that serve as extensions to Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas designated for an airport. Such airspace provides controlled airspace to contain standard instrument approach procedures without imposing a communications requirement on pilots operating under VFR.

3. Airspace used for transition. There are Class E airspace areas beginning at either 700 or 1,200 feet AGL used to transition to/from the terminal or en route environment.

4. En Route Domestic Areas. There are Class E airspace areas that extend upward from a specified altitude and are en route domestic airspace areas that provide controlled airspace in those areas where there is a requirement to provide IFR en route ATC services but the Federal airway system is inadequate.

5. Federal Airways. The Federal airways are Class E airspace areas and, unless otherwise specified, extend upward from 1,200 feet to, but not including, 18,000 feet MSL. The colored airways are green, red, amber, and blue. The VOR airways are classified as Domestic, Alaskan, and Hawaiian.

6. Offshore Airspace Areas. There are Class E airspace areas that extend upward from a specified altitude to, but not including, 18,000 feet MSL and are designated as offshore airspace areas. These areas provide controlled airspace beyond 12 miles from the coast of the U.S. in those areas where there is a requirement to provide IFR en route ATC services and within which the U.S. is applying domestic procedures.

7. Unless designated at a lower altitude, Class E airspace begins at 14,500 feet MSL to, but not including, 18,000 feet MSL overlying: the 48 contiguous States including the waters within 12 miles from the coast of the 48 contiguous States; the District of Columbia; Alaska, including the waters within 12 miles from the coast of Alaska, and that airspace above FL 600; excluding the Alaska peninsula west of long. 160°00'00''W, and the airspace below 1,500 feet above the surface of the earth unless specifically so designated.

f. Separation for VFR Aircraft. No separation services are provided to VFR aircraft.

 

[Steve Pierce]

Do you have to talk to someone above 14,500? Do gliders at that altitude have transponders? I know the jet that used to be here had TCAS. This sounds like one of those freak things like the Air Tractor that got hit by a T37 north of here a while back. Scary stuff.

 

[Greg Smith]

...As the plane was making its approach, it collided with the glider at about 16-thousand feet. ...

...The jet landed safely at the Carson City Airport without its landing gear...

Gear was down & struck a glider at 16,000 feet?

Looks like the reporter just slipped a decimal point. Gee... It is so uncommon for the press to make a mistake like that. :-?

 

[Longwinglover]

Gear was UP. The Hawker made a belly landing. Yes the collision was at 16,000ft.

John Scott

 

[don d]

I wonder if the sailplane pilot heard the jet coming????

 

[Floatin_around]

I have popped out of the clouds ifr and had a windscreen full of glider....
a real eye opener, was he legal, NOT!!!!

ATC did not pick them up, I was decending through 10K
No fun....
Ki

 

[M1]

Gliders flying up to and over 16,000 feet are not uncommon at all in the Carson city area, and they regularly fly courses over 500 km. Each year there are a few that get over 1000km.

It is unlikely the glider pilot heard the jet, and if he did, it would be very difficult to tell what direction the jet was coming from.

Fortunately there was no loss of life.

Check out:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec....306ac/ac3a3aa5701b4ae7?hl=en#ac3a3aa5701b4ae7
M1

 

[S2D]

Re: Sailplane and jet collide

The reporter wrote.....

A glider pilot was able to parachute to safety after his aircraft collided with a jet over Douglas County on Monday afternoon

Its been a while since I have taken any FAR tests...but doesn't a "glider" and a balloon have the "right of way" over a powered aircraft?
Maybe it should have read "a jet collided with a glider"

Randy

91.113 (d) (2)

A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

Guess that makes the Jet Jockey liable unless the glider was someplace he wasn't suppose to be. Can't imagine the glider was overtaking the jet 8) thankfully everyone survived

 

[duckhunter]

sailplanebizjet

at what altitude does controlled airspace begin and you have to be ifr

 

[mvivion]

THey were well within "controlled" airspace, as in Class E airspace. That is the lowest category of controlled airspace, though.

It's my understanding that sailplanes are not required to have an operating transponder at this altitude.

Class A airspace starts at 18,000 feet and goes up to 60,000 feet.

MTV

 

[rrb]

I think Class A airspace starts at 18,000 msl. But my memory may be rusty, about as high as I go in the cruiser these days is 1,800 msl.

 

[Snert]

He may not of heard the jet coming but I bet he got a couple photos of it.

 

[wateredown]

Never knock a femal pilot. This was worse than it sounded.

 

[Sam Beckett]

Great Job by the gal who was the Captain of that ship!
Beautiful recovery!
Many Kudo's to an OUTSTANDING CAPTAIN!!!!!


Sam


8)

 

[Nathan K. Hammond]

'Ya see that loose wire, well there's yer problem!' :lol:

Dang! Did she try the gear or say the hell with it, I'm landing?

nkh

 

[wingnut18]

"My old man is a television repair man, he has an awsome set of tools, I can fix it"

 

[T.J.]

delete

 

[Scruffdog]

The glider was owned by a friend of mine along with his partner who was flying the ship at the time. Fortunately, the outcome was broken airplanes and not people. To be that high without a transponder though is absolute stupidity. Their answer to it is that gliders are not "required" to have transponders. Required? Well, then this is what happens! An airplane at 2 or 300 knots won't see a glider until it's too late anyway. They are thin and white and very, very hard to see. I think a little air driven generator running a transponder is the answer. My SC has a transponder, strobe lights and radios......I just hope that others see me!

 

[mvivion]

Scruff,

What makes you think that the jet had any capability to detect a Mode C transponder??? Most don't. If they were being monitored by ATC at the time, that might have helped, but ATC isn't infallable, either, and they are probably not going to be real "alert" for airplanes at 16 K.

The rule is "See and avoid". Period.

I agree that a transponder is a good idea, but I see WAAAAYYYY too many pilots who never look out the window. Especially those with FMS and glass panels. They seem to think the whole world will appear on one of those tubes.

The RULE we all live by is SEE AND AVOID.

I would fault both pilots for not seeing one another, but, as noted, that is FAR easier said than done.

I would compliment both pilots on handling the subsequent emergencies they were both handed VERY eloquently, and professionally.

Sometimes, it happens, but I wouldn't bet that a transponder in the sailplane would have made a difference. Maybe, but no guarantees.

And, yes, a few years ago, I installed a Mode C transponder in my airplane. I'll take all the help I can get.

MTV

 

[Dick Williams]

sailplane midair

Sorry, Mike, gotta disagree. Most corporate aircraft with TCAS II will pick up a mode C transponder with altitude. Even without altitude, we'll get a primary target which gets our attention.
I'm a little tired of hearing about us corporate/airline jocks sticking our heads in the sand (cockpit). Most of us have a healthy general aviation background, have had at least one close encounter, and keep our heads on a swivel.
When I was the Chief Pilot for the BLM, we and the USFS debated on installing TCAS on all our aircraft. The pilots and many managers bitched about it until it was installed and used, and the pilots, bar none, swore by it after less than an hour of usage. Did this make us bury our heads down looking at it? No, because the oral messages would bring things to our attention as needed, and we had the background to understand our responsibility to look outside.
Maybe you have seen some general aviation pilots go "gee whiz" in the first hours of operation, and understandably been concerned about priorities. But I have haven't seen true professionals stray from their tasks after briefly getting familiar with the new equipment.
ATC still calls out traffic, and we still look for it. And we still keep our head on a swivel whenever we are entering marginally controlled airspace, which is anytime below 180.
TCAS, GPWS, HUD, it is all wonderful equipment that enhances safety. The people using it know how to incorporate it into their scans, and all the ones I know use it WITH see and avoid.
TCAS can be a lifesaver, and I believe it has saved me at least twice when I was looking outside to beat hell and couldn't see the traffic, but responded to the Resolution Advisory.

Dick Williams

 

[HydroCub]

ditto on Dick's comments

FWIW, about 75% of all midairs happen within 5 miles of an airport... and are usually the "overtaking" type.

Best safety for a Cub is low, tight pattern. Even a Baron can't match that. Remember that most high performance aircraft fly 1500' agl traffic patterns. If you fly a 800 or 900' pattern less than a mile from the runway, your odds increase a lot.... even from being hit by a Bonanza.

BTW, those "big" guys doing straight in approaches are doing you a favor most of the time. Let them get on the ground. Do you really want them cruising the pattern at >150 kts, nose up and their heads in the cockpit finishing the checklist items?? The restrictions to visibility in high performance aircraft can be great, especially at low airspeed due to the high deck angle.

 

[mvivion]

Dick,

You are correct, of course, but note that I wasn't describing high time professional pilots necessarily, when I noted a lot of pilots with their heads in the cockpit. I have flown with a diversity of pilots in the last few years, and I see a propensity for a lot of pilots to spend a lot of time inside the cockpit, high time and low time, though the low timers generally get the prize here.

I've seen TCAS used to benefit as well, and it's good stuff, no doubt. The problem comes when, due to human nature, one starts relying on some gadget.

There are airplanes out there without transponders. To call the owner of one of those "stupid" doesn't serve anyone, in my opinion.

Maybe this accident will precipitate more rulemaking regarding sailplanes and transponders, who knows. And, maybe that will make things slightly safer.

But the point I was trying to make, perhaps not elegantly, is that see and avoid is still our primary means of separating traffic in VFR conditions.

Even if your plane is equipped with TCAS.

MTV

 

[leon tallman]

biz jet

How about this was the glider pilot on oxygen and are we now looking at a 91.13 thing

 

[kase]

The Hawker did have TCAS.

 

[hankster]

Most glider pilots out west, where wave and mountain soaring are common, carry oxygen bottles.

Hank