Rethinking personal protection

[cub_driver]

When it comes to personal protection in the woods I have always been in favor of a large magnum rifle. With the new development of slugs I have been taking my faithfull 870 with its short barrel and folding stock. I feel confident with it and it is much less trouble to carry in the plane and in the field.

Last summer I was up west of MaGrath at a friends gold mine. I was planing on moving some equipment to another mine 7 miles away. I landed on the lonely little strip and began to shuttle equipment to the little shelter about 300 yards away. When I returned to my airplane after the last load I was shocked to see a black bear with his two front paws on the open door of my plane and his head well inside if it. Being I had had my arms full I didn't bother to carry the gun with me it now layed inside of the plane with the bear. My first reaction was to start yelling at the bear but it seemed to do little good. I looked around for things to defend myself with and saw nothing. The area had been burned of several years earlier and there was nothing bigger then a switch to be found but I still kept yelling at the bear to move. The bear finally moved out of my plane with out doing any damage. The bear turned my direction stopped to sniff my tire all I could think of was he was going to chew up my bushwheels so I yelled some more and shook some brush. This had little effect on the bear and he moved my direction again but then walked around the plane and sniffed the other tire. I yelled more he finaly moved about 50 yards away and I made one fluid jump into the plane and fired it up. I never seen the bear after that. I really wanted to put a chase on him.

My point being my gun did me absolutly no good in my plane, with the bear. I am considering one of the new titanium pistols for protection here is my thinking. I know a 44 mag is minimal power but if I put it in a hip holster it will be with me every time I leave the airplane no matter what the situation is. I doubt it will be in my way plus the weight will be minimal I should have no excuse to leave it at home. What do you guys think? How many of you guys are packing pistols when your out and about. I only plan on taking one gun with me I have enough other stuff to carry.

Cub_Driver

 

[ground loop]

My vote is for a flare pistol.

 

[StewartB]

I include a S&W .44 mag and a chest holster in my survival pack. I prefer stainless to titanium for easier control of recoil, and I prefer the chest holster to a hip holster because with a jacket, backpack, or hip boots on there's always something in the way of the gun on my hip. I can pull a gun from the chest holster quicker than a hip holster, and it stays dryer as well.

SB

 

[Jerry Gaston]

I have both the 870 shot gun with the short barrel and a 357 titanium S&Wpistol in a shoulder holster. I read that a 357 caliber has more penetration than the 44. But all in all the bear spray is much more user friendly.

 

[StewartB]

Here's some good gun reading. Remember they're discussing human targets in the self-defense references.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

SB

 

[Christina Young]

From previous thread:

Why do you need a gun? Do you expect to piss somebody off?

Alaska law no longer requires pilots to carry firearms.

SB

From this thread:

I include a S&W .44 mag and a chest holster in my survival pack. I prefer stainless to titanium for easier control of recoil, and I prefer the chest holster to a hip holster because with a jacket, backpack, or hip boots on there's always something in the way of the gun on my hip. I can pull a gun from the chest holster quicker than a hip holster, and it stays dryer as well.

SB

SB, why do you carry a gun? Do you expect to piss somebody off? Alaska law no longer requires it. Why not just bear spray and fishing gear???

 

[bearsnack]

My user name is bearsnack because 8 years ago a brown bear attacked me. When I asked the doctor how close I came he said another quarter inch would have opened my carotid artery in my neck.
Since my maker was kind enough to let me live through that one, I swore I would never be in the position again where a bear has an opportunity to tear me up. I now own and carry a S &W mountain gun .44--- and a Benneli M-1 super shotgun.

 

[StewartB]

Christina,

Because I can, but not downtown, and not a bear self-defense gun. Remember? I said that on the other thread, too.

Besides, I just like shooting. SB

 

[j3jm]

Most experts (not me) say ANYTHING that is in your pocket is better than the one left at home because it's too big, uncomfortable, can't be hidden, etc. etc.

 

[Erik]

SB - I too carry a stainless steel S&W .44 revolver in a shoulder harness. It has a 3" barrel and is the "Alaskan Backpacker" model with a neat bear engraving from the factory. The shoulder harness carries the revolver on one side and ammunition in the other side. So I can carry the rounds in the gun and more rounds in a side pocket, all in one package. I pull it from storage and put it on under my jacket when I de-plane. Is it effective against a bear? Probably not. But I feel better and it is at least "something". Plus I feel like the vice with it on. Fun.

Yeah, a weapon left behind is no weapon at all.

 

[N3243A]

cub_driver

Your experience is one very good example why I like to carry a good handgun. Most poo poo them as being underpowered, but as was pointed out, you are more likely to have it on you than a long arm, and it's a whole lot better than a stick. The S&W 329 Ti 44 mag is a good choice becuase of its light weight. While I have not shot one, I have heard it's manageable but you better hang on tight. This is a gun to be carried much and shot little. Personally, I carry a 3" roundbutt S&W 629 with 320 Cor-Bon hardcast bullets. These 320 grain Cor-Bons penetrate very well but are not on every dealers shelves. I have tested these on birch logs thru this guns 3" bbl and they will just barely penetrate a 11-12" log completely.

The new kid on the block will be the Ruger Alaskan in 454 Casull/45 Colt. With a 2.5 inch bbl it will certainly give you a good workout and another gun to be carried much and shot little (at least with full power 454 loads). These are still making their way into dealers shelves, and I have not seen one. They will also be a bit heavy, even with the short bbl.

To Mr. Gaston, a .357 mag will NOT penetrate as far as heavy hardcast 44 mag bullet, but you can certainly carry what you like. A 180 grain 357 bullet just doesn't have the inertia of a 320 grain 44 mag, at least in my admittedly limited testing.

Bruce

 

[ground loop]

Choice #2 if I wanted to believe I could stop a brownie with a handgun would be a .454 Casull, and #3 would be a .50 Desert Eagle. Both are fun guns to shoot. I would also use the heaviest bullet possible.
I use a shoulder harness holster made in Alaska that holds the pistol really tight to your chest. It doesn't slow movement at all. It can be purchased at Mountain View Sports.
I have had problems with my S&W .44 stainless revolver. It couldn't handle the heavier bear loads w/o screwing up the feed. My gunsmith said it was common with S&W 44's. If you use that gun, watch your loads!

 

[Erik]

The problem I have with handguns is not their power, it's their accuracy. Admittedly, this comes down to the shooter. But I practice so little shooting a handgun that I'm not good for much distance. The sights are crude. There is not the precision that I have come to expect from scopes. If the bear is 100 yards out or more, give me a high power rifle with a good scope. If he's less than that, give me a shot gun with alternating rounds of slugs/buckshot. If I can keep my cool, the slugs will take care of him. If I'm running or there is a lot of action, the buckshot will compensate with a wide pattern. I just don't trust myself with a pistol in this situation. If he's got ahold of me, then I bet I could hit him with a pistol (by throwing it at him!). But that would be too little too late I think.

Still, I think the point of a pistol for me is that "at least it's something".

 

[mvivion]

Erik,

Buckshot is pretty much useless against a bear, though it probably would piss him or her off pretty badly. OO buck is about the size of a .38 round, it is a ball, soft lead, and not moving very fast. If you can't hit what you're needing to with slugs, leave the gun home and take the pepper spray, and douse yourself with it just before the bear charges.

Otherwise, if the dang thing is 100 yards off, who gives a rip? It is not a threat.

The point is also well taken re: handguns that it may be the gun that you have on you, particularly when the long gun is leaned against a woodpile, as happened at Trapper Creek a few years ago.

A biologist some time ago darted a female grizzly with an immobilizing drug. Long story, but they were in deep snow. This guy was in the lead, behind was the guy with the tagging equipment, and behind him was the guy with the shotgun.

Bear reared up, grabbed the guy in lead by the ankle. He fell back into the next guy, who fell back into the guy with the gun. The guy in lead pulled his handy (operative term here) .357 from a shoulder holster, inserted it into the sow's left ear, and torched one off. At the time, she had his ankle in her mouth, I was led to believe. In any case, she got dead.

Maybe someone else on here has better details, that aren't third hand on that incident, but the point is it's the gun he had on him, and it worked.

We're not talking about knockdown power out at 50 yards, since you shouldn't be shooting a bear in DLP at that range.

As an old time F & G biologist replied to me when I first got up here, and I asked him where he'd shoot a charging bear: "Fur".

The other consideration that none of you guys have mentioned, though, and really surprises me, cause it could be the single biggest consideration in one of these incidents:

Make sure you file down the blade front sight on that handgun, smooth it up real nice, cause those really, really hurt when the bear rams it up yer........

MTV

 

[Erik]

Oh Mike! I'm starting to learn just what an expert you're not!

A spray of buckshot to a bear's face at close range will take his eye's out and should be quite disorienting. Plug him with a slug if you have time to aim well enough. "As I noted" (that's one of your favorite terms!), alternating loads of buckshot and slugs provides good insurance for different types of encounters. And it would give me confidence to stand my ground longer since I would know what a leathal weapon I have (even in trembling hands). The more confident and leathal you are, the more lee-way you can give a bear without shooting it. That's good for all.

If he's 100 yards away just leave him alone? Sure. What if he's aggressive or in your plane at 100 yards off (like with our initial poster)? Still leave him alone? I don't think so. Not when I'm in the middle of nowhere and alone. I was on a sheep kill all alone one year when a big black bear sniffing the fresh blood came upon me. I had all my gear spread out and I had blood over a large bit of myself. I couldn't get away and I knew that bear was coming right for me (just regular animal behavior that put me in danger). I had a .338. He was bout 150 yards out. What do you think I did?

Mike, I suppose you are so calm and cool you could just wait to shoot until your pistol was in the bears mouth huh? You probably have nerves of steel. Heck, you ain't afraid of no bear, and you don't get nevous and you know what to expect out of every situation, right?

You know Mike, you have a really demeaning way about the way you post responses. Pot calling the kettle black? Yep. I'm starting to get defensive now when I see your replies.

 

[ground loop]

The flare gun recommendation was from a bear biologist on Kodiak. He said it made them run like heck.
Did you guys ever talk to anyone who has been shot? A lot say they didn't feel it until they saw it. Do you think bears feel it? If you don't have enough energy to send a shock wave through the animal or the placement isn't instant kill, what are you left with at close range? Noise and flash to scare the animal. The nice part about the flare gun is that you don't have to wait until the bear is obscenely close to pull the trigger, for fear of all the paperwork that a mvivion type is going to make you do if you kill. Or worse yet, what if they determine that you acted to rashly and you didn't need to kill the animal they are lusting for a new cub.
Erik,
A weeney Alaskan black bear at 150 yards. I think you, at the absolute most, fired a warning shot and it scampered. Unless, you were hungry for some berry fed breakfast sausage, yummy, then the conclusion was obvious.

 

[mvivion]

Erik,

Sorry if my "demeanor" offended you.

The discussion was relevant to defense situations, and I will repeat that Alaska State law would look rather askance at your argument that you were defending yourself (especially from a black bear) at 150 yards. If you want to shoot a black bear at 150 yards, and the season is open, go for it, but don't try to convince me or a judge that this would be a sound DLP case. Did you claim the black bear on your hunting license, or did you head to the Troopers and file a DLP? A black bear headed your way at 150 yards, when you are armed with a rifle is nigh on to zero threat, but I wasn't there.

Do I have nerves of steel? Hell, no. But I have been around a couple bears here and there.

I worked in Cold Bay for a few years (on a brown bear project), I worked in Kodiak for 8 years (on a couple of brown bear projects) and I have worked out of Fairbanks for 19 years (on one bear project for seven years of that). So, yes, I have been close to bears once or twice.

Like many folks in Alaska, I've been way closer to bears than I ever should have been. That doesn't mean I don't respect them or their power, simply that many people have at times been pretty casual around bears, myself included.

Every circumstance is very unique, so its hard to evaluate an individual situation unless you were there.

A brown bear getting into my plane, when I'm 100 yards away?? I sure as heck wouldn't want to start a shooting war while he's rooting around in my plane, if I want to use the plane again soon. My experience there is he's just as likely to go out the opposite side, and there may not be a door there. Make some noise, get his attention, or just wait till he's done, then shoo him off.

I am a bear and firearms safety instructor for an agency that has a strict firearms and bear safety policy (everbody carries a gun in the field).

In short, Bears have been a significant part of my professional career.

My comment regarding buckshot was based on careful investigation and research which was used to develop the policy of an agency which has a comprehensive bear defense policy. In fact, my agency policy and at least one other I'm aware of specifically prohibit employees from carrying buckshot for bear protection.

I sure don't want to be anywhere near a wounded (even blind) brown bear. Have you ever actually seen one of those animals move, when they're motivated? They can flatten an area the size of a small town in a few seconds. How fast can you move? He doesnt have to see to thrash your butt.

We routinely take folks who haven't ever SEEN a model 870 shotgun and before they go to the field, they'll be putting a high percentage of slugs in the kill zone on a moving target. Shooting under stress isn't rocket science, and it can be taught. We use a towed target that moves at the shooter, and it gets the adrenaline moving. Not like a bear, but...

That doesn't mean that a person won't ever vapor lock, though. Which is why we don't work alone in bear country.

So, if all that offends you, sorry. Call a bear expert.

MTV

 

[paibre]

I gotta side with MTV a little(ok.alot). I've carried a BDA 380A for the past twenty three years. Hollow points when available(38 Countries) 13 in the clip. ! in the chamber. 4 seconds and it's over! 100 yard target is not out of line with this combo.

 

[StewartB]

Around my stomping grounds, black bear season is always open. Even in a den, unless accompanied by cubs.

I believe a shotgun is the most potent close-up weapon you can have. My problem with them is that in the woods, you're climbing over deadfall, through willows and alder, and crossing streams. In those situations the shotgun usually gets slung over my head and one shoulder. Not a quickly accessible weapon in that instance. It's worse when you have a pack. Long rifles are generally scoped. Try acquiring a quickly moving target at close range with a scope. Good luck. Heck, I carry my .44 in the chest holster when I'm hunting, because I'm probably shooting a .270 with a 2.5-8 scope. In the thick stuff that you go through during the hunt, that .270 isn't much good.

In my close experiences with bears, I've been armed about half the time. The result has always been the same, and that's that the bear and I parted company without incident. I've been in the woods with guys that have guns and those guns make them brave. I try to remain a little scared, even when I'm armed. Awareness is everything. About a month ago while hunting with my .270, I wondered upon a black bear with my rifle shouldered. If he wanted me, I was helpless to prevent it. If I'd had my .44, he'd be dead. I was only a couple of hundred yards from the cabin, and I was complacent. Now if you wonder upon a Kodiak bear with a .44, and you feel so insignificant it's hard to understand unless you've seen those bears up close. Black bears and even average sized browns, I'll take my chances with a .44. Kodiak? I'll put my faith in my hunting partner. I choose those partners very carefully for that reason. Depending on what we're hunting, one of us usually has a flat shooting smaller caliber, the other a fire-breather.

My idea of a survival weapon is mostly to obtain food. If I'm in a survival situation, I'm generally going to stay put. Bear encounters are unlikely if you stay within a small range and make lots of noise. Hunting situations are much different.

SB [/b]

 

[T.J.]

delete

 

[Erik]

Ok Mike. My appologies too then, on getting defensive. But back to the meat of it!

A weeney little black bear? A weeney little black bear can kill you. And by the way, this one wasn't weeney. I don't understand why people think because a black bear is smaller then a griz they are less dangerous. Ever heard of a 35 lb wolverine that is about the fiercest thing on the planet? I remember a black bear in the Lake Louise area in the early 90's that went after a woman on her house roof. It killed her when she was in fairly good defensive position. It had to work and go out of it's way to kill her. Any bear that is interested in you should be taken seriously.

Your policy about not using buckshot if fine. It's a broad based policy meant for your operational situations (remember your situation is more than one person in the field, and your not covered in blood). I think the point of this thread is - what works the best for all situations. That makes me think of me being alone. I always feel much safer when there is someone with me. So, I don't think it's fair to compare federal policy to this. And by the way, I said alternate buckshot with slugs. That is different than a shotgun loaded with only buckshot. (Mike, I must say you don't seem to listen for some reason).

The sheep kill I was on was just above thick forest in a little boulder strewn ravine. I had to take care of myself, my meat, and my gear. It was extremely remote country, and I was by myself. I had fresh blood on me that a bear used to find me. I had to pack the bloody meat out with bloody clothing and pack down the ravine or through the forrest. Do you think I'm going to fire a warning shot so that he can wait for me to walk by with a 120 lb pack, bloody scent, wabbly legs, exhausted, alone? Come guys. Sometimes I wonder how much people just talk and how much people really know, have experiences, or understand what it's like when someone gives a recount of their actual experience. I don't think most people appreciate this situation. First of all, how many Dall sheep hunters here? If you're not one, then you certainly don't understand my situation. I didn't know where that bear would go or what he would do in any scenario. I couldn't just say "time", I have to step inside a safe vehicle or house and think about this. I was definitly scared and there were a lot of unknowns. You can take your chances, they are your's to take. But that's a cheap shot to be telling me what I should have done in that situation. But any, all the situations are different.

 

[ground loop]

Erik,
It must have really sucked putting those sheep horns down, so that you could pack out all the meat from both animals before you packed out your trophy. In that sheep hunting circumstance I would have been to lazy to shoot the bear.

 

[mvivion]

TJ,

Sorry, I didn't explain our policy adequately. We are prohibited from carrying buckshot for bear defense, but we do carry model 870 shotguns, equipped with Brenneke slugs for that purpose.

Sorry, I'm not a ballistics expert, but I've patterned shotguns with buckshot at close range (within 10 yards). The pattern is just barely bigger than a slug round, so I don't hold much hope for shot. And the energy is the same or less than a half dozen (that's the number of pellets in a OO buck load) .38 rounds. Why not just carry a 9 mm with a 15 round mag and just hose him with that? Same effect. And, if you're using buckshot at more than 10 or 15 yards, its even less effective.

A Brenneke slug, on the other hand, will penetrate and break things down. It is a devastating round.

Erik,

I didn't mean to imply that black bears cannot be dangerous. They certainly can be. But it is extremely rare. As in extremely. But, your'e right, it can happen. My point was that at 150 yards, a black bear is not a threat. To me, at least. As I said, if you want to shoot it, go for it if its legal.

You didn't answer my question, though: Did you report it as a DLP?

I was packing a load of caribou meat on the Peninsula Bering Sea beach a number of years ago, covered in blood, as you say, and a nice big brown bear stood up right beside me, as in 10 feet away. I had a rifle. It didn't occur to me to shoot him. It didn't occur to him to eat me, either. I figured we were both ahead on that game after the fact. So what? It could have been different, but I'll put odds on the bear running off more often than not. In that case, he was so close I just stood there and watched him run off.

Do I carry a gun in the field? Absolutely. Do I carry buckshot? Yes, but only for law enforcement work, as in against people. I'm happy to report that I've never found out how well that works.

As I said, I'm not a ballistics expert, but some of the folks who wrote our policy are, and they convinced me that they are right.

TJ,

I like bears. Forgive me. I've worked with them, and interacted with them for nearly 30 years. I am not some nut case who tries to pet them, though. But, if you kill one in defense of life or property in my area, I would hope you can explain why it was in compliance with State statute. And, yes, there are very legitimate bear defense killings, and I'm on the lenient side, frankly, when it comes to those.

But it really pisses me off when anybody kills something (as in anything)that never needed to be killed at all, and when that is obvious, just because they needed a testosterone rush.

I've killed a lot of animals over the years. I am a very pro HUNTER. But what I'm talking about isn't hunting.

Well, that oughta get em going :lol:.

Somone should stop reading all that Kanuit crap on bears, and pick up a copy of Steve Herrero's book on bear attacks (Bear attacks: Their causes and avoidance). It is well written, and definitive, by a true expert. And Steve will forgive you for shooting a bear if need be. So will I.

MTV

 

[Erik]

You didn't answer my question, though: Did you report it as a DLP?

Report what?

 

[mvivion]

Erik,

You stated that you killed a black bear in defense. If so, you are required to present the hide to the state, along with a report. It is a DLP kill.

MTV

 

[Erik]

No, I did not state that. I stated what the situation was. I did not state the choice made.

 

[cub_driver]

My did we ever get off subject. I was wondering who was packing pistols and what worked best for them? I never been a real fan of pistols but after the story I relayed to all. I was wondering if others carried pistols for the same reasons I mentioned earlier.


Just to give my two cents worth about the other comments. TJ I agree with you on almost every post you have ever posted and I mean no disrespect but the buckshots got to stay home. In a 23/4" shell (00 buck)you have 11 pellets in a 3" shell you have 13 pellets they wiegh the same as a 22 long rifle slug and travel at the same velocity. Given the round pellet design they would be less co-effiecient then a 22 long rifle. So your shooting a bear with a dozen 22s (that loose velocity very fast) hoping to take the eyes out, seems like flock shooting. Myself I agree with Mike and will stick with the new sabet style slugs if I don't buy a new pistol. I believe that is the type of slug that dispatched the bear that killed treadwell and his girlfriend. That bear was shot at close range the slug entered under the eye and stopped the bear. Sure many other shots where fired but the first shot killed the bear it just takes time for such a large animal to die.

Erik I congradulate you on your solo sheep hunt. A full curl ram truley is a trophy to be proud of and the fact you did it on a solo hunt specks well for you. If you where to take a pole I am sure you would find many of us on this site have spent time sheep hunting. I took my ram on a solo hunt packing out I spotted two brown bears across the valley. My biggest fear from them was they would find the cape and horns before I could return for them. Every bear situation is different and if it is going to be bad chances are its going to happen fast. We all have bear storys we should start a bear tales tread. Bear stories only!

Cub_Driver

 

[StalledOut]

For me, I carry a S&W 629, 5" in a shoulder holster. I had Wild West Guns do some customization work on it. Depending on where I am, if I am in the open vs in the brush, I vary the loads. If I am on a sand bar with a lot of visibility I will most likely have some light "go away" loads for the first two shots followed by much heavier "stop now" rounds. If I am walking down a trail or in the brush all 6 rounds are heavy with 6 more readily accessible. In those situations I also wear dinner bells so the bears know right where I am in case they're hungry. I used to pack a shotgun with slugs but when I found it on my 4 wheeler and not next to me when I wanted it, I decided that a revolver on my side was better option.

All that's good in the daylight.

But at night things change. I have a streamlight NF-2 that is usually with me that throws an amazing beam of light and is easily held while taking aim. Most of my "get away from me" encounters have occurred at twilight hours.

I snow machine a lot in March and early April. On those trips I carry a Marlin 45-70, also customized by WWG with the big hoop etc for gloves. I seem to have more issues with angry moose in March than I ever do with bears in the summer. If I pack the .44 on the snowmachine it's usually in the windshield bag where I can reach it real quick. I do that because I am usually pulling a 1,500lb load on a sled and can't just turn and get away quickly.

 

[StewartB]

Here's an article that addresses some of the ballistics questions that this thread had raised. .357 vs .44, buckshot vs slugs, there's lots of information.

http://www-medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html

As for shotguns, this is from the University of Dundee (U.K.) forensic medicine site.

"12 gauge shotgun with nine 00 Buckshot pellets of muzzle velocity 1325 ft/sec has muzzle energy of 1899 ft-lb (211 ft-lb per pellet) which equals the energy of a 30-30 rifle bullet. (1902 ft-lb); a 12 gauge 402 gr. shotgun slug has a muzzle velocity of 1600 ft/sec and muzzle energy of 2485 ft-lb."

This thread has changed my opinion in the buckshot vs slug debate. More energy is the reason I'd have the shotgun in the first place.

SB

 

[mvivion]

I concur completely with the handgun argument, which was the point of my earlier story from the Copper Valley and the biologist. His .357, while not the optimum gun for the job, did the job, cause it was what he had on him when the bear bit him.

I'd opt for a .44, though, particularly one of the new lightweight ones.

As to those believers in buckshot, go out and pattern a buckshot load at realistic defense range, and I think you'll find that most guns don't scatter them all that much.

I doubt that they have the same velocity as a .22 long rifle, though, which is a sonic round, but in any case, the point is well taken. There's not that much energy delivered, even at very close range. Those pellets decelerate at a very high rate.

If you are going to carry slugs, DON'T use the sabot slugs. They are anti-personnel slugs. DO go to Northern Security Supply in ANC or some other dealer and buy some Brenneke slugs. They are specifically designed to kill large game, not people. They are available in both 2 5/8 or 3 inch, or at least they used to be. they may have gone to 2 3/4 now.

Bears in the twilight!! Yow!! Yep, I remember that part: Dead deer, Afognak Island, getting dark, boat still a long ways off. Great planning on my part.

MTV