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"Proven" hardware.

Longwinglover

Registered User
Charlotte, NC
During a rebuild project, one tends to end up with a lot of removed hardware (nuts, bolts, washers, etc.). We all know if it is a locknut or a bolt that comes from a location that has movement like the landing gear attach points, they get tossed.

What about the "other" removed hardware like washers, castle nuts or bolts from "non-moving" places like, say, compression strut to spar? These generally have not been stressed, but may be "aged" and may have cad plating worn or scratched, paint residue on them and are generally just "used".

What do you do with it? Does it all go to the "lawnmower repair" can? Can it be cleaned (maybe re-plated) and reused?

If you clean the hardware, HOW do you clean it?

John Scott
 
I buffed all mine on a wire wheel, and then had it all cad plated to mil spec @ $100 for the lot. That included baking to reduce the possibility of imbrittlement. Can't tell it from new in my inventory.
 
It goes in the can for when we don't have a new oone in stock and gotta have it now or it goes in the jigs, fixtures or whatever else I am fixing/building and need good hardware for.
 
John,
I had it done in Dallas. I can't remember the name of the company, but Bob Butler drove me there. If he's still kickin', maybe he'll chime in. He's been awfully quiet lately. Meanwhile, I'll dig up the receipt, and let you know.
 
Ruidoso Ron said:
I buffed all mine on a wire wheel, and then had it all cad plated to mil spec @ $100 for the lot. That included baking to reduce the possibility of imbrittlement. Can't tell it from new in my inventory.

Ron-

How long did it take you to buff every piece of hardware?

We used to get the floorsweepings off of the floor of the local aircraft bolt manufacturer here. Some time sorting and you have a nice collection.

Tim
 
I had an interesting conversation today with an FAA maintenance friend. I mentioned the idea to clean, replate and reuse some of this hardware.

His advice was to throw the old hardware out! I mentioned the idea of tumbling the stuff to clean it and he said the problem was that this would remove the cad plating. I talked of sending it out for replating. His position was that this was a No No.

While we weren't in a place that he could show me from "the book", his point was that the hardware comes certified and approved from the manufacturer, a "known quality". He says that there are NO published guidelines for RE-plating hardware and thus it would be technically not legal.

I think he was trying to make a point, though I think the point was pretty "fine". Sometimes I hate talking to someone in the FAA! 8)

Not sure what I'll do now. :-?

John Scott
 
There is a point where talking to mechanics is just as bad as the FAA. I would throw them out personally (I'm a A&P) but I see nothing wrong with replating them. Just save the reciept that shows they were replated as this would be considered "Maintenance" and documentation should be included in the records. I may even have the plating company certify that the process meets the Mil-Spec for the plating that is required. The fact is that the FAA can bust you if they want. It's easy to find an unairworthy item on any aircraft. If you make a reasonable effort to show you weren't trying to hide anything or if you don't create a safety problem then you are probably okay. I would consider it maintenance and write it up as such. Think about what the guys do who are restoring vintage aircraft and must replate a bolt or part simply because the part cannot be purchased. Those guys are doing it so why cant you. Call it maintenance, document it, and you should be okay.

To say there is no guidance for plating is a poor argument. Sure there is guidance. Its the Mil-Spec. Just because this guy cant or wont say its okay doesn't make him right. Like I said I would replace them but its up to you.

Here are the standards

  • QQ-P-416 Type 1, 2, 3
    AMS 2400
    ASTM-B-766

and maybe this one too
  • MIL-S-5002

Looks like there is plenty of guidance out there (I'm editing this as I research)

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgTSO.nsf/0/ad05ba590f484d1a86256dac0068f6a6!OpenDocument

Look Here:

PART 21--CERTIFICATION PROCEDURES FOR PRODUCTS AND PARTS--Table of Contents

Subpart K--Approval of Materials, Parts, Processes, and Appliances

Sec. 21.305 Approval of materials, parts, processes, and appliances.

Whenever a material, part, process, or appliance is required to be
approved under this chapter, it may be approved--
(a) Under a Parts Manufacturer Approval issued under Sec. 21.303;
(b) Under a Technical Standard Order issued by the Administrator.
Advisory Circular 20-110 contains a list of Technical Standard Orders
that may be used to obtain approval. Copies of the Advisory Circular may
be obtained from the U.S. Department of Transportation, Publication
Section (M-443.1), Washington, D.C. 20590;
(c) In conjunction with type certification procedures for a product;
or
(d) In any other manner approved by the Administrator.


Section B tell us we can use a TSO to approve our parts. Now we look up the tso listing in the AC20-110. it tells us that TSO-C148 prescribes the requirements for mechanical fasteners. Now if you read that and perform your replating to the standards of that TSO you should be fine.

Or you could just have your "Administrator" say its okay in writing. but thats highly unlikely.

This research took less than 18 minutes. I timed it. Too bad the FAA wont spend this much time tp find an answer for you.

For what it cost I would replace them.

Good luck.
 
AN hardware is not hard so not a problem with hydrogen embrittlement or you could have it baked like Ron. I blast special hardware and have it plated at Air Tractor all the time.
 
What do you think Steve? Is it too bad that we (Meaning Mere Mortals) can find this information and make an educated decision about this subject? The FAA has difficulty, not with the technical aspect but with the bureaucratic aspect. I think most of the tech guys at the FSDOs are pretty good but are afraid to give any approval for this type of thing.
 
Grant,

Thank you.

It does bug me that when I talk with someone that should be able to give me a straight up answer to a question, I get a wrong answer. We are all human and we make mistakes, but when it is a "person of authority" I'd HOPE for a more correct answer. Even a "Let me look into it and I'll get back to you." would have been a more "honest " or "correct" answer.

I appreciate all that have chimed in on this.

John Scott
 
Be careful, about misunderstanding him. If he said no he is the authority. He is the Administrator and there are other parts of the FARs that give him a pretty broad brush when it comes to safety.

I had a client a few years ago who was having to get there life vests leak checked every year even though the FARs say that the emergecy equipment is to be maintained IAW the Manufacturer recommendations. In this case the leak test was to be performed every 24 months according to the manufacturer. I tried to point this out to the FAA and read them the Regs and read to them from thier very own Airworthiness Inspectors handbook. (They don't like it when you do that) They said "Safety" and it was all over. I didn't keep pushing the issue because the client would have been the ones to deal with the results of my argument with the FSDO so I just left it alone.
So while we may be able to give you a more accurate answer and a route that can use to have this done IAW the rules it doesn't make it Ironclad. Sorry for the truth but that what it is.

Now I sound like a fed.

I can tell you now. Since you asked him you should replace them and make sure you get certs or reciepts on them because if you do replate them and reinstall them with no documentation he is going to have you by the balls.
 
After the Cadium is buffed, blasted, or tumbled off the bolts, where does it go? There is a major package, freight hauler that got busted by the EPA for improper disposal of Cadium when they would blast their shipping containers to repaint them. Suppoedly there is some health risk with Cadium dust. Then again it's not likely the the EPA is going to bust down my haner door and search it with their Cadium sniffing dogs.
 
The FAA people I have dealt with actually know very little about airplanes or processes. They know FARs. I educated myself on the processes and make an educated decision based on what I learned. The last thing I want is a structural failure because I made a wrong decision.

Case in point: I hate cleaning up and painting drag/anti-drag wires and the associated barrel nuts and square washers that attach them to the struts. On my airplane the wires were steel but the later models had stainless steel so I got S/S out of a damaged set of wings. I can get stuff plated at Air Tractor thru a friend but they don't bake it and I have come to the conclusion if it is hard it needs to be baked. http://www.omegaresearchinc.com/Publications/index.cfm
I found the drawings for the wires and associated parts with material call outs so now I know the material is not hard enough to cause a problem. Is your FAA inspector going to research this subject to educate himself? Probably not. There is a minority female inspector in Memphis who researches something and then goes out and looks for people to violate. It is easy to see what she has been reading. My point is you are more than likely more knowledgable about these things than the FAA inspector you are dealing with. Research for yourself and be able to defend yourself should something ever come up. If they are ignorant and you are knowledgable they will not push it.
 
TJ,

I'll wait until the sun comes up before I come to Alaska! :lol:

After just spending over $800 on NEW AN/MS hardware I thought I would just explore the possibility of re-using some of the NON-stressed hardware that is coming out of the current rebuild. I have been convinced to NOT re-use the hardware.

Did you know that cable shackles (those things that connect your aileron cables overhead) are now $15+ EACH!?! :o

John Scott
 
Longwinglover said:
Did you know that cable shackles (those things that connect your aileron cables overhead) are now $15+ EACH!?! :o

Just don't look at the price. Just order. It eases the pain.

Lower windshield strips 2-@$92.80---$185.60!!! Ouch! Cabin heat box $165.00! Shall I go on?......

(rant over. sorry to steal the thread)
 
hardware

Military manuals do not always call for replacement of hardware. They give specifications for the reuse of nuts bolts and fasteners. It's real easy to tell someone they need all new fastners, and they sure look pretty, but are the old ones servicable. I think that a lot if servicable items are discarded for cosmetic reasons. In these days of 100 grand supercubs pretty is essential to justify the cost but it doesn't necessarily mean pretty is more airworthy. I've worked on aircraft for 41 years and I've seen the good the bad and the ugly. If a fastener needs replacement, replace it. If something can be repaired repair it. If something is cosmetic tell the owner and give him the choice.
 
Had a uncle that used to straighten nails. Never used over a small can full, but loved to straighten nails. He didn't plate them, just left them rusty. He owned 3 or 4 farms so I guess it pays.
 
Roger Peterson said:
Had a uncle that used to straighten nails. Never used over a small can full, but loved to straighten nails. He didn't plate them, just left them rusty. He owned 3 or 4 farms so I guess it pays.

I guess I was 12 or 13 years old before I found out that you could even buy new nails! Whenever we didn't have anything else to do, we pulled nails out of old lumber, straightened them out, and sorted them into coffee cans. Guess that comes from having parents who grew up during the depression.
 
You mean to tell me that there are actually people out there that don't straighten nails?
 
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