• If You Are Having Trouble Logging In with Your Old Username and Password, Please use this Forgot Your Password link to get re-established.
  • Hey! Be sure to login or register!

Phase 1 Program updated to allow Task-Based flyoff rather than 40 hours.

dgapilot said:
Still nothing from AIR-630 to designees. No change until that comes through.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Not according to the EAA. The letter of deviation doesn’t cover that?


Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers… [emoji849]
 
EAA presentation slide says "A deviation letter from AIR-630 is coming shortly, ..."

"Shortly" may have been discussed but I don't remember any date being given by the presenter.
 
I heard that there was something coming out today. AWC was down all afternoon, maybe they were updating the ops limits.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
dgapilot said:
I heard that there was something coming out today. AWC was down all afternoon, maybe they were updating the ops limits.
Click to expand...
Maybe they've been reading all the flak they've been getting here and figured they had better catch up? :evil:
 
Deviation letter came out on Friday. The new Op Limit will be
"No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of meeting therequirements of § 91.319(b). The pilot in command must comply with § 91.305 at all
times. This aircraft is to be operated under VMC, day only. Unless operating in
accordance with the task-based flight test program described in Advisory Circular
(AC) 90-89C, Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook,
chapter 2, section 1, during Phase I flight testing, this aircraft must be operated for at
least _____ hours with at least_____ takeoffs and landings in this geographical area:
[The area must be described by radius, coordinates, navigational aids, and/or
landmarks. The size of the area and airports must be that required to safely conduct the
anticipated maneuvers and tests.] This aircraft may only operate from [identify name of
airport(s)]. (42)"

We can now issue the new op limit.
 
As quoted the new op limit does not require a geographical limit when using task based testing for phase 1. Was this intentional? It would be a very significant change.

"Unless operating in accordance with the task-based flight test program described in Advisory Circular
(AC) 90-89C, Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook,
chapter 2, section 1, during Phase I flight testing, this aircraft must be operated for at
least _____ hours with at least_____ takeoffs and landings in this geographical area:"
 
frequent_flyer said:
As quoted the new op limit does not require a geographical limit when using task based testing for phase 1. Was this intentional? It would be a very significant change.

"Unless operating in accordance with the task-based flight test program described in Advisory Circular
(AC) 90-89C, Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook,
chapter 2, section 1, during Phase I flight testing, this aircraft must be operated for at
least _____ hours with at least_____ takeoffs and landings in this geographical area:"
Click to expand...

Good point, I have contacted FAA for clarification. I suspect they want the geographic restrictions to apply to any Phase 1 testing but that isn't haw it is written!
 
dgapilot said:
Good point, I have contacted FAA for clarification. I suspect they want the geographic restrictions to apply to any Phase 1 testing but that isn't haw it is written!
Click to expand...


There is a paragraph in my operating limitiations that does not make any sense no matter how it is parsed. My DAR said it was directly from the FAA software and he could neither explain it nor change it. At least this amendment makes sense. Just probably not what they intended.

I expect most would like the geographic area to be unconstrained so don't rock the boat too hard!
 
dgapilot said:
Good point, I have contacted FAA for clarification. I suspect they want the geographic restrictions to apply to any Phase 1 testing but that isn't haw it is written!
Click to expand...

The wording in AC 90-89C was unambiguous. Someone in FAA decided to revise the wording and completely changed the meaning.

"The limitation that authorizes the use of the task-based flight test plan is worded as, or worded similarly to, the following: All flights must be in this geographical area: [The area must be described byradius, coordinates, navigational aids, and/or landmarks. The size of the area and airports must be that required to safely conduct the anticipated maneuvers and tests.] Unless operating in accordance with the task-based flight test program described in Advisory Circular (AC) 90-89, Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook, chapter 2, section 1, during Phase I flight testing, this aircraft must be operated for at least _____ hours with at least_____ takeoffs and landings."
 
Last edited:
Has there been any update to this? Have DAR's been able to apply the task based program into the operating limitations yet. I have an inspection tomorrow and my DAR knew nothing of this. As you guys stated above he says he is restricted to what is available in AWC, 25 or 40 hrs.
 
Dave as Steve said my understanding as well is others are doing it.
 
Last edited:
Bearhawk Builder said:
Has there been any update to this? Have DAR's been able to apply the task based program into the operating limitations yet. I have an inspection tomorrow and my DAR knew nothing of this. As you guys stated above he says he is restricted to what is available in AWC, 25 or 40 hrs.
Click to expand...
I know a couple (he gave a presentation at a public EAA chapter meeting three days ago) - They got the sign-off from the DAR on their Kitfox the Wednesday before Oshkosh. The first engine start was the next day, Thursday. They had some electronic glitches (Garmin) so all day Thursday was used chasing down that. Friday morning was the first flight - they had fuel pressure issues so immediately returned to land. They got that sorted in short order and got right back in the air. They used the Task-Based test flight. They were DONE that same day after 8 hours of flying. They flew the plane to Oshkosh on Saturday morning arriving on Sunday (about 14-hour flight with an unscheduled overnight due to weather). They won a Bronze Lindy. I doubt the FAA was thinking one day and done when they made the program. They had two pilots in the airplane but the task cards were on the ground - the ground crew told them what to do per the task card. Pilots radioed back info and ground crew recorded. So yes some are using it.
 
I've been issuing the new Op Limit since April 6 when the Memo came out from Air-600. The new op limit is worded incorrectly and I tell all my applicants that the geographic area still needs to be adhered to. A new version of 8130.2 will be released shortly.
 
My DAR won't do it. He's aware that others are but he feels that until the discrepancies are settled and it becomes an option on AWC he's hanging it out there. He seems like a good guy, not trying to be difficult he just hadn't even heard of this until I sent him the link so he asked up the chain and it's not yet widely accepted. At least not here. The new 8130.2 should clarify things but no good for me this time.
 
Bearhawk Builder said:
My DAR won't do it. He's aware that others are but he feels that until the discrepancies are settled and it becomes an option on AWC he's hanging it out there. He seems like a good guy, not trying to be difficult he just hadn't even heard of this until I sent him the link so he asked up the chain and it's not yet widely accepted. At least not here. The new 8130.2 should clarify things but no good for me this time.
Click to expand...
It has been in AWC since April! Where are you located? I'm in MD and travel all up and down the east coast and east of the Mississippi doing DAR work. For the right price I've even gone to CA and Europe!

Here are the words for Limitation # 42 right out of AWC that are on a certificate I issued last month
"No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of meeting the requirements of § 91.319(b). The pilot in command must comply with § 91.305 at all times. This aircraft is to be operated under VMC, day only. Unless operating in accordance with the task-based flight test program described in Advisory Circular (AC) 90-89C, Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook, chapter 2, section 1, during Phase 1 flight testing, this aircraft must be operated for at least 40 hours with at least 20 takeoffs and landings in this geographical area:
 
Last edited:
I'm a little out of my lane but how do you justify using limitation 42 without having the revised 45 certification statement that is not in AWC yet? That was his sticking point.
I'm in NH, I'll call you next time
 
Bearhawk Builder said:
I'm a little out of my lane but how do you justify using limitation 42 without having the revised 45 certification statement that is not in AWC yet? That was his sticking point.
I'm in NH, I'll call you next time
Click to expand...
Not sure what your point is. Limitation 45 is simply the logbook entry that closes out the flight test. There is no difference whether you use task-based or the standard 40 (or 25) hour flight test period. The DAR is supposed to issue the limitations generated by AWC. According to my guidance, the FAA can ADD limitations if they see fit, but cannot "REMOVE" limitations that are generated by AWC. So I am not sure where your DAR gets off saying that he won't approve task-based testing. It has already been approved! Every airworthiness certificate I issue these days allows for task-based flight testing. And most of my applicants are using it!
 
Bearhawk Builder said:
I'm a little out of my lane but how do you justify using limitation 42 without having the revised 45 certification statement that is not in AWC yet? That was his sticking point.
I'm in NH, I'll call you next time
Click to expand...
We have a memo from FAA (Forget if it is AFS600 or AIR that says to use what is in AWC and supersedes what is in 8130.2. I'll have to try and find it if you want a copy. Not sure how to link a pdf but look up AIR-600-DM04 in DRS under AVS Policy for the memo.
 
Last edited:
jnorris said:
Not sure what your point is. Limitation 45 is simply the logbook entry that closes out the flight test. There is no difference whether you use task-based or the standard 40 (or 25) hour flight test period. The DAR is supposed to issue the limitations generated by AWC. According to my guidance, the FAA can ADD limitations if they see fit, but cannot "REMOVE" limitations that are generated by AWC. So I am not sure where your DAR gets off saying that he won't approve task-based testing. It has already been approved! Every airworthiness certificate I issue these days allows for task-based flight testing. And most of my applicants are using it!
Click to expand...
Joe, it's not 'my point', this is the position of the DAR I'm using and I'm not defending it. I don't like it either and spent an hour arguing the case but this is his decision and that of the entire Portland Maine FISDO. I specifically argued your point above that the 45 log book entry should cover both hour based and task based since it doesn't specify either one but to no avail. They feel that since it's allowed by police letter AIR-630 but not in 8130.2j they have to wait until it is. You guys are the experts and we're left with unequal application of the regulations, pretty frustrating.
I'm genuinely trying to get some ammunition here to make my case and I appreciate the input.
His argument is that the certification statement for task based is not yet in 8130.2j which is the DAR Bible as I understand it and until it is he won't be able to use task based.
Oh well, got my AW Cert today and will start boring holes in the sky
 
Last edited:
Bearhawk Builder said:
...this is his decision and that of the entire Portland Maine FISDO....
Click to expand...
Interesting. Someone should be bringing this to the attention of FAA HQ. They always preach that there should be uniformity of application of the regulations and policies. So if there is not uniformity (as is the case here) someone up the chain really needs to know about it so that the appropriate "education" can be provided to the office(s) downstream.
 
On Monday my DAR wrote a letter to the directors at the FSDO outlining the inconsistency, he stated in part -
"As a representative of AFS in aircraft certification, I am requesting the policy letter issued by AIR 4/6/2023, be amended, or a new memo be issued, which will allow the use of a modified limitation #45 that would capture both certifying statements and worded in such a way that the owner/pilot would use the appropriate statement depending on his/her flight testing option in limitation #42. Finally, I would request your coordination with appropriate parts of AFS to amend AWC to include a two-choice limitation #45."

On Tuesday I got a note from him saying to go ahead and use task based using my current certifying statement. His hope is the new certifying statement will be amended soon.
Thanks to you all for the information helping me to wrap my head around these regs and their sources, maybe we made a small change in the system.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
Barnstorm 2021: A Supercub Flying Adventure Across America
Replies
1
Views
2K
mam90
M
D
Barnstorming 2021
Replies
1
Views
2K
JP
JP
Back
Top