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Personal Minimums

...the decision to LAND at the grass strip would have been a poor one. How is taking off and landing at an airport where the conditions were within my limits a poor decision? The nagging feeling I had from the get-go was due to the fact that we probably would not get to land at the grass strip to meet family and friends; it had nothing to do with me taking the plane out. Perhaps I deluded myself somewhat with a faint hope that conditions would not be as bad as a feared at the grass strip, but who hasn't, at some point in their lives, done that? No harm, no foul. I told my passenger once we were up that conditions didn't bode well for a landing at the club. We both agreed that since we were up, why not go fly over it and have some fun. I didn't need the nearest reporting station to tell me that I shouldn't land there.

And all of that, according to you-- a good take off, a nice but bumpy flight, a decsion not to land at another location, and a good landing---all of that was a chain of poor decsion making on my part?!! Hmmm, I'm making BAD decisions every day then.
 
annestoy said:
...(is that better, Aviator?)...Anne.

Yes, Anne; that's much better. Your thinking is obviously clear but maybe a bit narrow. What SB is saying makes good sense. Every situation, on the ground or in the air, is the product of myriad conditions and circumstances, most of which are unknown to an outsider (someone else), even in the same cockpit. That's why commenting on another pilot's mental performance is presumptuous.
 
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Cubchick asked for opinions. I gave mine.

And it's not a catfight. It's my opinion. It's what I would have done in the same situation as I think I understood it.

Anne.
 
But on the other hand, I can't expect all pats on the back, now can I?

This is why I post...to hear back from others, to gain insight, and hopefully to evoke stories from others. I don't have much to add but my own flight experiences...I'm a low-time pilot who doesn't know diddly about jackscrews and where to get the cheapest tires. I've never pretended that I don't make poor decisions sometimes; and occasionally I make good ones. Remember, the title of the post is personal minimums, not "Did I screw up or not?" I'd like to know YOURS!

Steve, I get to be the tabby cat! She looks she's got the jump on the white cat.
 
Anne, I don't consider it a cat fight by any means. Sorry to let you GUYS down! :lol: I'm thankful for your insight and that you took the time to give it. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it. That's the beauty of this site! It would be boring if we all agreed.
 
There are three scenarios that I visualize every time I fly.

1) The weather's bad, but not TOO bad at home. I can go poke my nose into the sky and see if it gets better where I'm going. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't let the weather close the door behind you.

2) The weather's good at home but I suspect it's not so good where I'm going. Same deal as #1 above. Do a 180 and head home.

3) Here's the twister. The weather's marginal at home. You go poke your nose into it and it gets worse in front of you AND behind you. I can say without a doubt the worst conditions I've ever landed in were in this scenario. The winds were uncomfortable at the destination strip, but I didn't fancy the flight home, either. Judgement time. Personal limitations collide with limited time and limited options. Nobody's opinion matters but mine.

I give every other pilot the benefit of doubt based upon those experiences.

SB
 
You brought up another interesting topic, Chick, that seems to fit the discussion: Insight. I for one would like to hear opinions on its role in flying. I think the trendy--and sometimes annoying--idiom is "Situational Awareness." But what is it? Where does it come from? What does it do? What do we do with it?

Any thinkers out there?
 
cubchick said:
Steve, I get to be the tabby cat! She looks she's got the jump on the white cat.
To quote Joey from Friends . . . "Throw some Jello on 'em!" :agrue:

SB, you bring up a good point in your third scenario. I've been in that boat a couple times and it's not a fun situation to be in. Sometimes in that situation it's best just to find a spot on the ground and wait it out.
 
Better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here...

sj
 
Aviator said:
You brought up another interesting topic, Chick, that seems to fit the discussion: Insight. I for one would like to hear opinions on its role in flying. I think the trendy--and sometimes annoying--idiom is "Situational Awareness." But what is it? Where does it come from? What does it do? What do we do with it?

Any thinkers out there?
Aviator, I brought up the "annoying " terms. Just what would you rename them? Trendy, I dont think so, I was taught situational awareness a long time ago,Im no young grasshopper. Im one of those often maligned airline pilots that gives simulator checks and airplane line checks, nothing to do with cub flying but plenty to do with making decisions as a pilot. I have to make decisions on pilot performance often and those terms are just part of the forms that I fill out. Should we rename it something hip like "thinking ahead" . You said"what do we do with it"? you should know that. My appoligies for bringing up trendy, annoying terms.
 
Girls aren’t the only ones that get caught with the door slammed in their face.

A couple of years ago, I took off on a nice day for a “3 hour tour” to go get a new chart. You know what I mean? One of those days when you will find any excuse to go out and get some air.

When I returned home (4 1/2 hrs later), I was met with some pretty good winds. Luckily, the wind was greatly reduced on the ground. The pic is of my downwind speed. You guys fly these things, you tell me how hard the wind was blowing.

My point is, sometimes what’s going on in the air and what’s happening on the ground are not even in the same ballpark. This is where I have to agree with SB. Whether you stuck-it-on or turned around, It’s not up to me to second guess your judgment on a successful flight. And you learned from it. That’s what counts.

Click on the picture.
 
Hey CC

I think you did good. As a very average stick and rudder pilot---I have tried my best to always fly with options. These options change a bit throughout a flight and need to be re-evaluated. I have to say I have always enjoyed working with the weather(VFR). I take weather very serious but I enjoy being able to safely get the job done when the weather is not that brilliant out. If I like alot of other people, made the decision to fly from sitting on the ground and not gone up and looked---I would probably have half the flight time that I have. Keep your options handy and fly safe---20-20 did you enjoy the flight?

Mark
 
Xwinds and personal limits.

Great comments from both points of view.

I agree with Cubchick on going out and checking the situation at the other field. I fly in both NJ and FL and my personal limits are different for each location. In NJ a 25 knot wind keeps me on the ground, while in FL I often fly in 25 kt. winds. The flat terrain acts very different in Florida, while in NJ the hills make for interesting wind shear at the same 25 kts. This came with trial and error, but not to much error thank goodness.

Yet I understand Anne's point and concern. I try not to be a bold pilot because I want to become an old pilot. (Oh oh, too late for that.)
 
Cavy - you got me beat, I was coming into my old home strip once in a 150 Cub with fat tires and 41 borer. GPS was reading about 144 mph and I was thinking that this may be a wild ride but might as well take a look at it. Dropping below 500 feet in the pattern, the wind petered out and was only about 12 mph on the ground.

Brad
 
AkPA/18 said:
As a very average stick and rudder pilot---I have tried my best to always fly with options.

HA! Mark, many of us have watched you fly our airplanes way better than we can, so we are either all way below average (quite possible) or we need to pierce your veil of modesty.... 8)
 
I routinely leave the dead calm of Colorado to fly through a wind tunnel vortex of southern Wyoming enroute to a peaceful respite tucked 50 miles from the nearest weather reporting station. And once in a while that peaceful respite surprises me with 20kn Xwinds (once 60kn winds! - made 150kn GS to my alternate). Sometimes there is no way to know without pokin' around.
 
Cub junkie said:
...Aviator, I brought up the "annoying " terms. Just what would you rename them? Trendy, I dont think so, I was taught situational awareness a long time ago,Im no young grasshopper. Im one of those often maligned airline pilots that gives simulator checks and airplane line checks, nothing to do with cub flying but plenty to do with making decisions as a pilot. I have to make decisions on pilot performance often and those terms are just part of the forms that I fill out. Should we rename it something hip like "thinking ahead" . You said"what do we do with it"? you should know that. My appoligies for bringing up trendy, annoying terms.

Thanks for the response, Junkie. You're the first one with guts to comment. Like I said, I'd like to hear opinions on insight however we want to call it.

Keep up the feedback. There are no right or wrong answers. Just opinions.
 
Situational awareness?

There's a mountain to the left of you, hills to the right, tall trees covering everything except the gravel bottoms of small creeks that pass under you, it's raining hard, blowing 30, the ceiling's at about 1000' but it doesn't matter because unless you're near the tree tops you don't have any depth perception at all. The weather behind you sucks. The weather ahead of you is reported to be better. There's one more rigeline to cross before the flats, and the gap between clouds and treetops is about 50', represented as a slightly brighter shade of fuzzy gray through the rain-covered windscreen. The nearest radar service is a couple of hundred miles away.

Situational awareness consumes you.

SB
 
For my 2 Cents worth Cupchick did as she should have. There is nothing wrong with going to “Take A Look” as long as you know you can return with a reasonable margin of safety. To not do so you risk missing a flight that may have been completed. Once she took the look she made a good decision “When in Doubt Don’t.” Especially with passengers.

Cubchick if you ever want a job flying pipeline patrol let me know. :wink:
 
SB said:
...Situational awareness consumes you.
I like that: It's insightful.

Patrolman said:
...There is nothing wrong with going to “Take A Look”...
Years ago it was standard operation, called a "Guaranteed Manifest." On charter flights, especially in the Arctic, the customer was told of the odds, and if he accepted them, he had to sign the manifest (agrees to pay even if the flight cannot get in). The flight was then planned round robin.

..."When in Doubt Don’t."
This advice could probably be expanded to cover dynamic situations too. (e.g., airborne). When in doubt, it sometimes helps to look at trends. If the situation is stable or improving, then it's better to leave well enough alone. But if it's deteriorating, then it's best to do something.
 
I have about 3000 hours, which I know is not a lot compared to some people and a lot more than some others. Those hours vary from flying a Super Cub in Alaska to flying a C-130 on NVGs in Iraq and Afghanistan and a whole lot of other stuff in between, and the one constant between the spectrum of my experience is that judgement is key, regardless of the type of flying or where you are doing it. No surprise there. I often make decisions that I look back on and think maybe I should have done that differently, or not. In the 130 community, where there is a crew of six providing inputs (not to mention the 25 regulations I operate under or the guy on the other end of the radio telling me what to do), we often debrief decisions extensively, to get it better for the next time, and there is alot of operating in what we call the gray, where decisions aren't black and white, no matter how much written guidance there might be out there.

My point is that launching into the conditions you launched into, and making decisions along the way about whether to continue or turn around, shows excellent decision making and reasoning skills on your part. The fact that you are willing to open yourself up to criticism on a board like this is further testament to your desire to learn and your judgement. Let Anne say what she may; she wasn't there and if she had been she might have made a different, but also correct (considering her confidence or skill level), decision. There is no clear-cut answer in many of these aviation questions -- today it is wind in your cub, tomorrow it might be a maintenance problem in another airplane, in my line of work it might be an evaluation between the threat or weather/terrain conditions at a particular airfield versus the importance of the mission. In all cases, what is important is that you are aware of the factors, and continually update your decision whether to launch, press on, turn back, or whatever. Every pilot out there has made bad decisions in his or her past, and we all learn from that... it is experience.

Now, as to the more basic question about wind in a Super Cub, let me relate this story. About three years ago when I had about 50 hours of tailwheel time and thought I had it pretty well figured out, I went up to the paved strip at Wasilla one day when the wind was blowing variable out of the northeast at 14 gusting to 22, because I could handle that amount of wind in a 172 with little trouble. I did several wheel landings but I had to work for them and I scared myself a little. A few weeks later I went to one of those FAA Safety Seminars in Anchorage where the topic was Super Cubs. One of the speakers was one of the Alsworths from Port Alsworth, and (I think it was Glen) he went on to talk about the pilot that he employed that flew nothing but Super Cubs, and how this employee had thousands of hours flying Super Cubs in Alaska and he never went anywhere in a Super Cub if the wind was greater than 20 knots. And I thought, how stupid am I, me and my 50 hours flying around in that kind of wind when the real professionals won't do it. To this day, three years and 700 Super Cub hours later, I still use 20 as my threshold. If a guy says he can fly a Cub in a 30 knot crosswind, then more power to him. He is either a lot better pilot, or a lot worse.

Sorry for the length, but I hope you got the message. Keep on keepin on, cub chick.
 
Bravo on your decision making cubchick. Alternate airport/strips are another good idea in planning for x-wind days. Practice is essential for proficiency and confidence. I remember watching Bob Breeden land in Aboline Tx at the first Tx cavalcade. Excellent Xwind landing in extreme winds on the pavement . The gracious controller on the field sugested that the rest of us land on the grass in the MIDDLE of the airport . We were all happy to oblige. Fantastic Southern hospitality . Practice is great fun ! (and some times real exilerating!) Rick :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
My point was, that if something is telling you not to go, then don't go. I was not criticizing Cubchick for her decision to go. I was criticizing her for not listening to that little voice telling her not to go. I am not that little voice. She has been concerned about crosswinds since she first got on this site, and still has concerns. Too many people have been killed by pushing their limits because it was OK "last time."

Steve, I did not appreciate the "catfight" comment. If two guys can have a difference of opinion, why can't two women? And it appears since I am in the minority opinion, that it's not a catfight at all, but a whopping blowout. Take your sexist comments and go @#$^%.

Anne.
 
Slowmover~Thanks for your informative reply! That's quite a range there going from a cub to a C-130...as well as being soley reliant upon yourself to the input of a crew of 6. I absolutely agree with you that decision making is grey...if I always made the decsion to go or not from a chair in my house, would I be progressing and enhancing my skills as a pilot? But on the flip side, I can't go flying off willy-nilly without regards to weather, either. So that's what I'm always seeking the middle ground (and getting my instrument). Am I pushing myself too little or too much? Right, it's relative to each pilot, and you learn as you go. And I learn in feedback from you guys. Yes, it's a little daunting putting your story out there in a public forum, worried that someone's going to shred it. But I'm asking for opinions, and opinions I get!!!

Rick~I would have liked to see Bob's landing!

Anne~Don't sweat it, I told you I wasn't offended in the slightest by your opinions. A little defensive, maybe, but I hope that I always have reason to defend my actions. Curious, how many hours do you have? I've got 288, about 178 of those in a tailwheel. I'm just a baby pilot and hope that I will be concerned about crosswinds for many, many hours to come. If only for the mere reason that I don't want to screw up and damage my dad's plane (he might take the belt to me). :lol:
Oh, and you have a great point about the "cat fight" issue! I must admit that I laughed and joked about it, but guys are QUICK to label any kind of discussion b/t women that lasts more than 2 posts as a cat fight. And then jello gets mentioned, and then bikinis get conjured up. It is rather demeaning. I told Steve that I was going to post a picture of a cockfight the next time the guys start quibbling. :cluck
 
Anne, Do you still go to New Holstein? I have been telling Tish and Jason they need to go. Ya'll can set these guys straight once and for all.

I need to make it there myself. 8)
 
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