PA-12 Performance with O-235 C1C

[WWhunter]

Hey guys. Before anyone suggests the search function....I already did that and read as much as I could on -12s. Seems the biggest drawback about them is their old fuselage. Also, most of the comments on here are relating to O-320 powered 12's.

I just got done looking at a PA-12 (original) that has the O-235 engine. Nothing fancy .....just a plain-jane 12. The guy is looking for a 172 for more cross-country work and to eventually get more ratings.
He is interested in a trade for my 172, which is great for me since I don't have to pay the extra taxes if I sell the 172 and purchase another plane. I also want to get rid of paying hangar rent in town and keep something at the farm. I have the Champ already but want to keep it on floats in the summer and would like this -12 for wheel flying.

How does a stock -12 perform? Any problems with it getting in and out of my 1000' strip? I couldn't fly it as it is being annualed and waiting on a mag part. This 12 does not have the flap conversion, mid-time engine, has hydraulic brakes, radio and transponder. Other than that, pretty basic. Last cover was in 1994.

Thanks,
Keith

 

[Cubus Maximus]

Keith - I haven't been by your place yet but my only question would be, how clear are your approaches? If you don't have gazillion foot tall Norway's on either end I would think an old stock engined 12 would do just fine on a 1,000 if kept as light as this one sounds.

Brad

 

[oldbaldguy]

I've never flown a modded 12 so I can't compare. My stock O-235 12 (same motor it was born with) does pretty well solo. Performance degrades a bit with additional weight, as you'd expect. If your approaches are open, you shouldn't have a problem once you figure the thing out. My landing rolls are usually no more than a runway light or two, however far that is. Take off solo is pretty quick and ROC is usually 500 to 700 feet a minute at 75 mph indicated. If you hold it low on take off and build up some speed, it will zoom-climb pretty well if you need to do that. Slips pretty well on landing, but it comes down OK with power off as well. I almost always three-point mine, so it is pretty much out of energy by the time the wheels touch. My 12 was rebuilt in 1995 and was treated pretty well by whoever owned it before me, but I still had a $3,000 annual the first year and a $1,000 annual the second. This was by a guy who knows his 12s and knew what to look for. I really like my airplane because it never uses more than 6 gph (36 gallon tanks) and is fun to fly if you aren't in a hurry -- cruise is about 90 in still air -- but I wish it was easier to get in and out of. That's really my only complaint.

 

[WWhunter]

Thanks guys!

Cubus, you can about imagine how my approaches are up in my neck of the woods. I cleared quite a few trees but the extended part still has trees. I'm new to TW flying and fly the Champ in and out of there but it does get hairy sometimes. Especially with two on board. Can we say PUCKER factor!!

OBG,
Sounds about how my Champ operates out of my strip. My Champ has the same engine so I would guess performance will be similar. I have seen several 12's with the 150 for sale. May have to look at them.

I'm surely not a big guy but I sure like the extra room the 12 has over an 18. Due to an auto accident, ,most of my back is fused and rods on both sides of my spine so I have a heck of a time trying to bend (can't) and get in a SC. I recently went on a ride with a couple of different members on this site and one of them was in a J-3. Really had a hard time trying to get in. Once in though the fit was ok.

Keith

 

[superchamp]

Keith - sounds like the beavers and need to revisit the approach ends of your strip. Those amazing animals always seem to know what government trees are in the way. I'm betting you could come and go just fine with that 12. What's the empty weight compared to the superchamp? And without the 150 in it, I'll bet the price is right.

 

[StewartB]

Due to an auto accident, ,most of my back is fused and rods on both sides of my spine so I have a heck of a time trying to bend (can't) and get in a SC. I recently went on a ride with a couple of different members on this site and one of them was in a J-3. Really had a hard time trying to get in. Once in though the fit was ok.

Keith

Keith,

Before you set your sights on a 12 find one to try on. They're bigger inside but they aren't necessarily easier to enter and exit. With your back a 12 may or may not be easier than an 18. My right knee has seen the knife 8 times. I thought a 12's roominess would be better for me to get in and out of. I was wrong. It's manageable, but not easy.

Stewart

 

[CptKelly]

Keith....

Keith,
I do not think the -12's take off performance would equal a hi-powered Champ. From what I've heard, the 0235 powered -12 is a pretty sluggish bird, and does like the runway. Like someone said above, find one, try it on, and if possible, fly in it. I am not trying to start a flame war, or bust your bubble, and this is not from personal experience, just what I've heard and read.

Mike

 

[Alaska_Rallyer]

Flown a j5 with 12 wings, 0235, 18 gear, 18 tail, zero electrics, 7635 prop, no flaps. That thing with one guy would go anywhere. With two still great. 1000 strip was not a big deal with two guys, gear and gas. Throw a pitchy prop with electric sys radios and nancy interior and i your going to be leavin the beer at home.

 

[MikeJ]

Someone posted earlier about the -12 being hard to get in and out of. Yes, it can be. Last weekend I got tripped up getting out of mine and went down hard on the rear lift strut. Put a nice dent in it with my knee and put a pretty good bend in the strut too. New one is at the painter now so hopefully I'll be flying again soon. Wish it had hurt my knee more and the strut less!!

Mike J.

 

[WWhunter]

Thanks for the feed back everyone! One of the main reason I am interested is the guy is willing to trade for my 172. I really hate to get rid of the 172 but that 25 mile drive to town and having to pay hanger rent are good enough reasons to trade.

I did "sit" in this particular 12. It was slightly easier to get into that then the J-3 and PA-18. Not as easy as the Champ but do-able.

Russ, I'm thinking the empty weight is more than your old Champ. I wouldn't think much more though. he didn't have the logs available when I looked at it as the annual was being done and the mechanic had them.

 

[Fortysix12]

I think that a 1000 ft is tight for a stock 12 100 hp. Add a passenger and forget it especially if it has 50fters. The 115 hp does better paired up with a Mac seaplane twist but gives it up on the back end. Add 96 degree day and it would be a trick. You should go try it by yourself and see what you think, I personally would want a little more power.

 

[scout88305]

Here are Keith's approach ends

I'd trade in a NY minute. If the 12 is nice you will have a better investment than a 6 cylinder 172. Especially with the fuel forecast.

 

[d.grimm]

Keith,
That looks like a nice strip. I would jump on that PA12 in an instant.

 

[PhilP]

I used to fly a stock PA-12 all the time around north Florida and I'd agree that 1000ft is enough. We'd take it into ultralight strips between 800-1300ft and be ok. You will notice it's a fat heavy cub, but I always loved the way it flew. On the hottest summer days, if the grass is wet and your friend is joining you, you may need to go early in the morning. On cooler days, you may even get away with 2 lighter folks in the back. A climb prop would probably help lower pucker factor in the summer with 2 folks but with no big obstacles you shouldn't have a problem, especially solo.

One thing I will tell you that's almost as important as getting out is proper approach speed to get in. The stock 12, with no flaps will fly you right on past the other end if you approach faster than you need to. If you don't, it'll get in almost as short as a J3.

 

[Cub junkie]

I would recommend keeping the brakes in top condition. My friend with a 12 used to come into my strip, 1800 ft. but with genuine 50ft. trees on the approach ends. He knew his airplane well but as said the approach speed is the critical factor.

 

[WWhunter]

I will have to get another good look at this 12 before I make a decision. I only saw it at night in a dimly lighted hanger. It was recovered with ceconite in 1994. Has hydraulic brakes already which is a big plus.

Anyone know of a good tube and fabric guy that could give me an honest evaluation of the plane in the Laurinburg, NC area? Dave, Ron...any ideas?

Thanks,
Keith

 

[Longwinglover]

Anyone know of a good tube and fabric guy that could give me an honest evaluation of the plane in the Laurinburg, NC area? Dave, Ron...any ideas?

Keith,

I highly recommend Bob Woods of Woods Aviation in Goldsboro, NC. Sorry, I don't have a phone number.

John Scott

 

[Snert]

Keith,
I'd have to go along with John on this. I've never used him but Ron has for a long time. Try this phone number. (919) 581-0640

 

[alaskadrifter]

I thought this might help to give you a decent ballpark idea.
http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane462.shtml

I was looking around, and it seemed that you could get a 150hp 12 w/ no frills for not much more than 50k.

 

[aviationinfo]

Keith:

I'm a fairly new 12 owner having had mine for 9 mos.

Mine has the O-320, flaps, , 18 gear and tail, etc., etc. It's probably 200 lbs heavier than yours.

I saw the original W&B from the factory showed an empty weight of 941 lbs.

I can totally concur with previous posts---you need to slow it down on final. When you get used to it you will find that it will fly "stupid" slow, as in the airspeed indicator shows speeds below the bottom of the white arc. I doubt it's really going that slow due to the old style pitot-static inaccuracies, but the point is you have to slow it down to get a good short approach and rollout. And that's with flaps, so it's even more important with a stock plane.

If it's only yourself on board and light fuel, anything much over 50 on short final will equal a longer ground roll than necessary.

You'll find that a slow enough speed translates into a landing roll of less than 500' with little brake use. For takeoff use a tail-low technique for the shortest roll. Can't tell you how far you'll roll, but in the right conditions (no wind) my heavy plane with a cruise prop lifts off in roughly 250'. Even if yours is triple that (it won't be) it looks like you have enough clearway available.

 

[plocht]

So, what is the consensus as to the speed on final and speed over the fence for a stock PA-12 with O-235?

Tom

 

[cubx3]

pa 12

I have a 125 hp pa 12 with an electrical system,radio,and a transponder, otherwise it's pretty stock. If your strip is pretty flat and the approaches are as good as they appear in the photo I think it's doable, I agree with other responders that approach and over the fence speeds are critical.vortex generators would give you a little more performance that may help reduce the pucker factor.If you get to wisconsin ring me up and we can take mine for a buzz.

 

[WWhunter]

cubx3,

Thanks for the offer! I'll probably be going through WI in a few weeks. I see that you are near my route to MN I'll give you a PM and let you know. Or if you want just PM me a PH# and I'll give you a jingle when/if I can.

The approaches aren't as good as they look on that photo. I need to clear out some more trees. You can see how many I have cleared out on the SW side and some on the NE side. Also the strip has quite a drop in elevation on the !st one-third of the NE end. Maybe I just need to fly more as I've only got 35-40 hrs on TW. All the other time in the Champ has been on floats.

From the consensus I am reading on here it may be just a tad over marginal for this particular -12. The engine has over 1000 hrs so I'm guessing it isn't the most powerful as when new. It has a full electric system with radio, transponder, gps, and lights. I haven't been able to get an EW from the owner yet so I'll go from there when I hear something.

 

[J5Ron]

Keith,
Looks like your strip is more than do-able.

I had a J5C ( basically a stock 12) with and 0235 C 100hp, it weighed 960 lbs, 30" streaks, starter LW battery, VG's.

Here are some performance facts:

Valdez Airshow- Sea level... TO 168' Landing 170'---20 gal gas.

Approach speed 45mphs, used extra rear trim...three pt. Landing speed no wind day with VG's about 35-36...GPS.

Prince William Sound deer hunt...tops of mountains. two deer, 25 gal gas, just me, 70 degree day, 2200 feet elev... 400 feet...

Chitna River--- TO 600 feet, 1100 feet elev. 4 people... wife and two small children... pucker factor...thats all the gravel bar was...

My J5 got off the ground very well for 100hp...went most places up to 3000' elevation that my brother-in-laws 150 hp moded PA 12 went...

Only draw bach was climb performance at altitude...just needed to sometimes circle more... I thought getting in was easier that my Supercub...

Good Luck!
Ron

 

[mvivion]

Keith,

My first airplane was a stock 12, but I was on the AK Peninsula, where there's always wind and its never warm. Nevertheless, I think that plane would work for you on that strip, except in worst case scenarios, perhaps (full fuel, two people, etc.).

First, find out if its a good plane. Learn everything you can about the engine-that's a good bit of time.

A set of VG's and a longer/flatter prop will also really help if you do buy it. Keeping it light is going to be important. An Odyssey battery and possibly other lightweight accessories, plus looking hard at interiors, etc to see what can come out or be easily replaced with lighter stuff will help as well.

Have the mechanic take a really close look at the fuel tanks if they're original. They all leak eventually, and can be a pain.

Getting in and out can be easier with the door hinged at the top, but that requires modifying the stock fuel gage.

I'd say it should work fine, as long as you can launch light. Getting in is just a matter of learning to fly it. They'll land short fine.

MTV

 

[StewartB]

Why aren't you flying your 172 in and out of there?

Stewart

 

[bob turner]

The -12 is a nice airplane - but not very impressive in a STOL sense. You would like it, but it is possible that the 172 would do as well with one or two pilots.

The big deal is getting in and out of the aircraft - I swing in and out of J-3s and PA-18s every day, and have no problems, but getting in either seat of the -12 is somewhat of a hassle. Not as bad as the back seat of a Husky, but still a pain for a mid-sixties guy in excellent shape.

So what about a 180 conversion and a Texas Taildragger thing for the 172? Or maybe the same with a 160 in the 150? Get the one with flaps that actually extend down to here?

 

[Fortysix12]

So, what is the consensus as to the speed on final and speed over the fence for a stock PA-12 with O-235?

Tom

I drag in under power at 45 to 50 even slower. But you need power to finish up nice. Even slower but more power. For everyday fun no work flying I use 50. That speed will give you a hand full of stick. You can land a 12 in 25% of the distance required to take off( with a full brake upgrade of coarse). But what's the point.

 

[plocht]

I drag in under power at 45 to 50 even slower. But you need power to finish up nice. Even slower but more power. For everyday fun no work flying I use 50. That speed will give you a hand full of stick. You can land a 12 in 25% of the distance required to take off( with a full brake upgrade of coarse). But what's the point.

Thanks,FortySix12 - I tried 55 mph today. I was surprised at the high deck angle to keep it at 55 with power. Nice landing though. Tom

 

[scout88305]

This video is departing Keith's in a Scout. I am holding the nose down to film something other than blue sky. Gives one an idea of the departure end. Is this 12 user friendly?