PA-12 landing speeds

[bob turner]

If Oldgeezer was old in 2007, I wonder how old he is now, 18 years later?

I have one student. who gets to the point where I have to insist she do full stall/3 point landings as penance for the next month! Do all techniques, and do them often. Don't just choose a favorite and ignore the rest.

 

[jerryderen92]

I've been flying Cubs for a long time and must have missed something, which is certainly possible. Would you care to explain how this technique provides you with better control?

Waldo: oldbaldguy said he lands on concrete most of the time...I love a 3-point on grass because even with a crosswind you can sort of "slide" across the grass if you land with a slight crab into the wind. But on concrete or asphalt, you'll have your hands full if you've got a crosswind, especially on a narrow runway (our air park is only 50' wide, so...). With a wheel landing, you can set the upwind wheel down first (I carry a little extra speed in a crosswind situation), then slowly set down the downwind wheel as you slow (keeping the stick in the forward r/l corner), then eventually lowering the tail as you really slow down. This is what I was referring to with "better control." I also prefer a wheel landing as it gives me better forward visibility, at least until I slow enough that I don't have enough elevator authority to keep the tail off the ground. There's no question that a wheel landing is more challenging and requires consistent practice, which is why 9/10 of my landings are wheel landings...I know I can always do a three point, but when you NEED to do a wheel landing, it's nice to know that you're confident and proficient in the technique.

 

[bob turner]

I only have five hours in -12s (counting my J5 time) so I should stay out of it. In J3s, Champs, 180s and Stearmans, you can easily handle 15 knot direct crosswinds 3-point. The spring steel gear is harder to do a good wheel landing, but the other aircraft don't seem to require more skill one way or the other.

One thing to remember in a crosswind - sooner or later you have to get the tailwheel on the ground. The slower you are going before that happens, the more likely you will weather vane due to insufficient rudder.

 

[Waldo M]

Thank you for the reply, jerryderen92. I understand and agree with some of your points. In a PA-12, visibility is better at touchdown with a wheel landing but I still prefer full stall landings in them

I think a wheel landing is a good arrow to have in your quiver and use them occasionally. They are useful in gusty wind conditions to avoid trouble with wind shear in the landing flair. Three point landings in a Cub are full stall landings. If a ten knot headwind is suddenly encountered then, the airplane tends to "balloon". If the headwind suddenly loses ten knots at that point the airplane stalls prematurely. With a wheel landing, the airplane has an airspeed cushion at touchdown to avoid this. In my opinion, it is generally better to land the airplane in the lowest energy state but I am willing to sacrifice this a bit in wind shear conditions. Notice I am not referring here to a crosswind condition. If the wind is steady, I prefer three point landings regardless of runway surface. Yes, a sod runway is more forgiving but it is our responsibility as pilots not to touch down with any drift. Granted this can take a lot of hard work and concentration with a light airplane in gusty conditions, but it can be done.

The content of the next paragraph I was going to write was just succinctly covered by bob turner's post.

 

[jerryderen92]

I only have five hours in -12s (counting my J5 time) so I should stay out of it. In J3s, Champs, 180s and Stearmans, you can easily handle 15 knot direct crosswinds 3-point. The spring steel gear is harder to do a good wheel landing, but the other aircraft don't seem to require more skill one way or the other.

One thing to remember in a crosswind - sooner or later you have to get the tailwheel on the ground. The slower you are going before that happens, the more likely you will weather vane due to insufficient rudder.

Good point on the tailwheel, Bob…that transition is more difficult in a crosswind, so I may opt for getting the back wheel planted at a higher airspeed where I have more rudder authority. Definitely worth a try the next time I’m shooting crosswind approaches. Thx!

 

[cubdriver2]

Waldo, you can still do a 3 pt full stall just push the stick foward the second you touch. Takes any bounce or balloon out of the wing. Try it, you might like it

Glenn

 

[Waldo M]

I have. I don't. There shouldn't be bounces or balloons in a properly executed full stall landing, but yes, throw in a little wind or misjudgment and stuff happens.

Whatever works for the individual pilot is good with me.

I acknowledge that pushing the tail back up after touchdown temporarily puts more weight on the main wheels and could increase brake effectiveness. That is offset somewhat by the fact that the airplane has more aerodynamic drag in the three point attitude when the wing is stalled. I certainly use that technique if a tailwheel shimmy is encountered in order tp make it easier on the airframe.

I notice that this is used frequently in bush flying operations. Maybe some pilots experienced in that can weigh in.

 

[Waldo M]

No, citabriaalaska, I was editing my comment when you posted and submitted it before I was able to see your post. I appreciate your input. I don't know why you removed it or it was removed.

 

[Citabrialaska]

I removed it because you edited your post and it said exactly what I had just said. No need for two posts to say the same thing back to back.

 

[Waldo M]

Your post was more succinct and from the source; that's always better.