PA-12 landing speeds

[oldbaldguy]

I bought my first long wing Piper last summer and have been trying to figure out how to land the thing consistently ever since. Mine is a pretty much stock PA-12. As far as I can tell it flies like it's supposed to -- sort of truck like, but is great for cruising around with my arm hanging out the window. This is an honorable thing and I do it a lot. But my landings often suck. I learned to fly taildraggers in a 100 hp Taylorcraft, then owned a Champ and a Flybaby. I've also flown Citabrias and such quite a bit. Never had a problem until now. I've made just about every kind of landing imaginable in the 12 so far: good ones, bad ones, curvy ones, hard ones, bouncy ones, etc. Some have been downright scary. I cross the fence at 65 or 70 indicated then bleed off speed until the wheels chirp (I'm on concrete most of the time), then I'm all the way back on the stick, etc. Don't how fast I'm going at this point because I'm looking outside. Sometimes the 12 agrees, sometimes it doesn't. I convinced myself recently that I'm landing too fast and went out and tried some at slower approach speeds and ended up with a higher rate of decent than I'd like. These landings were firm, but short and no worse than many of my others. I've landed on grass only once and it was a real greaser after floating for a bit. All my other taildraggers seemed to go out of their way to tell me how they wanted to land -- each one had a sweet spot I could feel when all the stars lined up. My 12 lacks this feature and does pretty much whatever I tell it to whether it's right or wrong then laughs at me when I screw it up. Anybody out there have any suggestions/ideas/magic formulae?

 

[12Geezer2]

oldbaldguy---the key to your problem may lie in your title Been flying my 12 for 7 years now and sometimes think my " geezerhood" is my problem. Flew a nice supercub for 20 years and the percentage of good landings was much higher than with the 12. Need to keep in practice. Sounds like you are doing the right thing by keeping your eyes outside. I seldom look at the airspeed and never look when I'm in a short field situation. Really need to work on the feel of things and I avoid hard surface runways. The cost of the 4inch cub tires is one thing but the grass is so much easier and forgiving and there is non of that expensive chirping sound :lol: practice practice---another thing that has helped me on most any airplane is to go up a couple thousand feet and really play with low speed and get right into some stalls.--Geezer Dan

 

[Marc Olson]

Mikey should chime in as he flew a stock PA-12 for a number of years.

With my -12 (O320 and PA-19 tail) I try to cross the fence at 55 indicated, 50 if I'm trying to land really short. At those speeds its a high deck angle and carrying power.

I also have VGs and the XWinds STOL cuff.

 

[12Geezer2]

I've got flaps,vg's,18tail and kenmore 0-320. Over the fence at 40 indicated --but I really don't trust airspeed indicators. :-?

 

[Lasater]

I had a hard time landing my PA-14 (almost identical to a 12, but with flaps) until I turned off my stall warning and slowed it down. I was coming over at 60, now I come over at 50-55, slowing to 45 mph over the numbers. I find the -14 to be harder to land than our -18 was, but I am getting better.

Steve Pierce is putting VG's on my -14 as we speak. I am looking forward to seeing the difference they will make.

 

[fatcub]

They are all a little different. My 150HP with no flaps lands best coming in at somewhat of a high angle of decent nose high just above stall with just a blip of throttle right before touch down. I got this habit flying the 206. This make an ultra smooth 3 point landing that is relatively short. I add about 5 MPH for wheel landings and just fly it on. I am not saying this is correct, but this works for me..

Stop looking at your airspeed and learn the airplane. You'll love landings again.

Scott...

 

[JimC]

Old BG, it sounds to me like you're coming in way hot. And I would expect the stick to be all the way back when you touch down -- not wait till after you are down to pull it back.
JimC

 

[J5Ron]

I come in at 50...nose a bit high...a couple extra cranks of trim to the rear...small shot of power just before t.d. mine has VG's, 18 tail, 100hp,,,no flaps.

 

[CptKelly]

Try this...

I find that if I'm really looking for that real slow "chirp" when my wheels touch, if I carry just a little bit of power, the transition is much slower and softer. Try either carrying a bit of power, or adding just a touch right when you start your flare. Works for me.

Mike

 

[oldbaldguy]

PA-12 Landing speeds

Ok. All you all are saying about the same thing -- slow down over the fence. If the weather holds, I'll try it first thing tomorrow and let you all know how it goes. I agree about not trusting ASIs. Mine will lie in a heart beat. No matter what it says, my GPS says I'm doing 85 mph. The airplane is a 46 and has the motor it was born with, so that might have something to do with my paltry cruise speeds. But I'll worry about that once I figure out how to land it to my satisfaction. BTW, my wife thinks the airplane is possessed.

 

[mvivion]

OBG,

Back up just a bit first. How does the airplane stall??? I presume you've gone out and done a LOT of stalls with the airplane in both power on and power off modes?? Also, turning and straight ahead?

If the airplane stalls straight, and (at altitude) it seems to stall about where you'd expect it to, airspeed wise and verified by the GPS, then all the advise so far certainly applies.

I never make assumptions on aircraft rigging, however. I've gotten in brand new airplanes and had them get on their backs when slow, I've flown Cubs that the owners said were great backcountry airplanes and they were badly mis rigged.

Check out the rigging at altitude first, if you haven't already, and you may have. If it stalls straight as a string, and predictably, then you are probably just looking at a technique thing.

My first airplane was a bone stock 1947 12, and a great little airplane it was.

MTV

 

[janberghoff]

PA12 landings

I have flown stock PA12's for a few years now. By all means I have had my share of not so great landings but I agree with the others who say...bring her in around 50-55 over the fence as they like to float. Just as it is ready to hit the pavement I give her just a little gas to pull the tail up just enough to make sure you are on centerline, bring her down and release the gas. I do a lot of pavement landings but run out and shoot a lot of grass landings to keep on top of it. Have fun.....they are a great plane to fly. Be sure you are working the trim throughout the final.

Jan (supercruiserman) :lol:

 

[oldbaldguy]

Awright. Went out this morning and shot five landings. All were passable, that is to say better, and under control, but still a lot of work and faster than I'd like. I hooked up my GPS and found the ASI and the GPS almost agree with the GPS showing 3 or 4 mph slower. I paid a lot of attention to what I was doing: Flew the pattern with the runway bisecting my wing struts, pulled power abeam the numbers, turned base when the end of the runway was 45 degrees behind me, BUT!!!! I'm holding it high over nearby houses and have to come down pretty quick close in and ended up every time with 70 over the fence, 60 over the lights, etc with the power all the way back. This, BTW, is exactly how I landed my Skylane for years. So, I'm thinking I'm trying to land an airplane that weighs half as much, has half the horsepower and no flaps using a Cessna 182 approach profile and runway sight picture. Other than that, as far as I can tell, the airplane flies straight, stalls straight when I can get it to and performs pretty much by the book, but it sits one wing low on the ramp. Might be a tired bungee on one side, but I don't see what difference that would make. So that's the latest and I'm sticking to it. Thanks everybody for your help. OBG

 

[Speedo]

If you're at 70 over the fence and 60 over the lights you're way too fast. As a rule of thumb, you want to be 1.3 x Vso on downwind and 1.1 x Vso on final. Your stall speed is what, around 43 mph ISA? So 1.3 x 43 is 56 mph, and 1.1 x 43 is 47 mph.

As a point of comparison, for a wheel landing I fly my -12 at 60 on downwind, 55 on base and long final, 50 on short final. Power is set at idle abeam the numbers, and is sometimes used to make minor adjustments on final.

Our planes are configured differently, so our numbers won't be precisely comparable, but we can use similar methods to determine the right landing speed and rate of descent that produces a good (and repeatable) landing. I arrived at my numbers by doing lots of slow flight in the practice area, and developing a good feel for the sight picture (and aircraft attitude), noise level, and rate of descent. Then I went into the pattern and practiced some more, and I learned that I can do a good landing, and touch down on my target, from most any altitude, if I superimpose the jury strut clamp on the runway and fly the speeds described above.

Keep working on it, and you'll get more comfortable and the landings will get more repeatable.

 

[JimC]

-- I'm holding it high over nearby houses

An excellent idea -- nobody's going to knock that.....

-- and have to come down pretty quick close in and ended up every time with 70 over the fence,

Sounds like you're trying to lose altitude by dropping the nose -- raise the nose and slip instead, probably at about 60mph indicated. Your descent angle will increase drastically. While in a slip, use the ailerons to drift you right and left as required to remain along the runway centerline, the rudder to control your desired nose angle relative to the runway, and your elevators to control your airspeed. Some folks prefer to forward slip, others to side slip. Either works OK, but with no crosswind, you'll find forward slipping to be the easiest way to maintain the centerline alignment (in forward slipping, the nose points off to one side and is not aligned with the runway direction -- in side slipping the nose is aligned with the runway direction). As you intersect your desired approach profile and end the slip, raise the nose slightly again during your return to coordinated flight, so that you don't regain speed as your drag decreases. Caution -- don't inadvertantly do a cross-controlled stall.

-- 60 over the lights, etc with the power all the way back.

Try about 50 over the lights, but work down to that speed gradually over a number of landings, so that you are comfortable with it.

And first, go to considerable altitude, set up some 50mph approaches at altitude, and play with the rudder, ailerons, and elevator as you descend, so that you can get a feel for how the plane responds to them at slow speeds. Liability disclaimer -- be careful not to get too slow, as some control deflections at very slow speeds could result in a spin.

As an aside, I tend to 'land' about 6 inches above the ground, holding the plane off with increasing elevator, so that I reach a full stall and full aft stick while still slightly above the ground, mushing in that last half foot or so. The purpose being to minimize the chance of having enough energy left to bounce or float.

JimC

 

[mvivion]

In an aircraft without flaps, the forward slip is your best friend on landing approaches.

Go to altitude, and practice forward slips at reasonable approach speeds, such as 55 mph. Practice them at several different speeds until you can nail the speed, and keep it consistently exactly where you want it.

Now, go back to the airport and do your forward slip on final, AT AN APPROPRIATE speed. Kick that slip out, maintaining that final approach speed, and nail the landings.

I find that most folks have really lousy speed control entering, performing and recovering from forward slips. That takes a little practice, but when you get it right, it's one of the prettiest maneuvers you can do in a little airplane.

Afraid of stalls/spins from a forward slip? You can stall a plane in a slip, of course, and you want to remember that your airspeed indicator isn't very accurate in a slip. But remember that, to perform a forward slip, you have rudder deflected one direction, and aileron and roll in the opposite direction. Those are specifically ANTI SPIN control inputs.

Again, get some altitude and experiment with the plane until you're comfortable with some good slow approach speed slips.

Then give it a shot.

MTV

 

[JimC]

Well said, MTV.

Normally, stalling while in a slip will make the low wing rise toward level. However, if it happens during a transient gust or shear, the results can be erratic, so be cautious about speed control during the slip. Controlling the speed while converting out of the slip is where most folks mess up worst. Also, I recommend against converting out of a slip directly into the flare until very familiar with the plane. Wait a bit too long to convert, and you will touch down sideways, which is hard on the gear. Leaving a bit of a gap between the two maneuvers buys you a bit of safety margin even though it partially defeats the purpose of the slip.
JimC

 

[oldbaldguy]

OBG here. Went out today intent on doing some slow flight, stalls and such but found that the smokey haze we have going on right now made such endeavors pretty much moot. I at least have enough sense not to try such things when viz is nil and there is no horizon. So I came back in and landed instead. It was tolerable but nothing to write home about. If I can't get a handle on this landing thing in the near term following your all's advice, I'm gonna sell the airplane. We are not connecting and I'm not gonna keep flying it like this.

 

[Mikey]

OBG,
Hang in there. I'm odd man out on this, but my best landing w/ stock -12 and no flaps available were wheel landings w/ about 65-70MPH over the fence, nose down after touch down to stick it on the runway. Any attempts at a true 3-point were just luck, sometimes good, most not so good plunkers. Anything slower and you will have to drag it in w/ power on or it will take a pinch of power to round it out from this configuration because as you have figured out, they run out of elevator w/ no prop blast over the tail feathers. I rarely used the forward slip, because if you are high on final, pull the nose up and slow down, you will feel the bottom drop out as you get on the other side of the L/D curve. But DO KNOW THE STALL CHARACTERISTICS of your bird, because you are in a partial stall condition low to the ground. If you have a bird w/ all the washout removed from the wings, it could be a ugly surprise. Flaps are a great addition because you can get the speeds down w/out having to have the nose so high. Then you can do the same drive it on landings but nice and slow.
Lots of good advice from people here w/ a lot more experience than me, so just my 2 cents worth.
Chris

PS:If you want to have some fun, go out at night at a nice long 5000+ runway and do a 'glassy water' approach to a landing. Sometimes its so sweet you can't tell if your on the deck yet.

 

[jimboflying]

You might try checking your airspeed indicator for accuracy. There can be some variation of course.

 

[oldbaldguy]

Mikey's description of his experiences with a stock 12 pretty much mirror mine so far. My airplane feels best on approach at the speeds he talks about. When I slow it down more than that, I get a lot of down and not much forward motion. Additionally, when I bring the stick all the way back in the flair, it quits right then -- Boom! It's done no matter how high we are and I usually get a plop rather than rolling it on, which is why I've been waiting on full back stick until the mains are on. Controllability on rollout isn't much of an issue; I can handle that part of it, more or less, and my landing rolls are pretty short -- I often have to taxi to get past the VASI lights. But my approaches are a mess. I always run out of nose up trim and the unbalanced elevators get really heavy and lack finesse. Takeoffs are a breeze and remind me of an elevator because the airplane just sort of levitates and goes up. And otherwise, it flies just fine. It looks like much of the smoke has cleared today so I'm going to go out and try some slow flight and stalls and such to see if I can get comfortable at slower speeds. My 12 is really pretty nice to be almost 61 years old, but the previous owner sold it after just six months and bought a 90 hp Super Cub, so I'm wondering if maybe he knew something I'm just now discovering.

 

[12Geezer2]

Hang in there OBG. You have a really good airplane. I know you are not in a hurry or you wouldn't fly a long wing piper. :lol: There is only a couple places I've landed with a150 hp pa 18 that I won't try with my 12. The variables even prohibit the 18 from landing in those places if the wind is wrong. Just keep practicing and maybe fly with other 12 drivers. Even the best can learn. Also keep in mind as my old friend once told me "nothing can humble a person quicker than an airplane" It was a bit breezy here yesterday (gusting to 27) didn't stay out long in the bumps but had 2 good landings , one on grass ,one on blacktop---don't know if it was skill or luck :lol: do know reading this post you started makes me think

 

[JimC]

OBG, hang in there. I promise you it will be worth it. 12's are great airplanes, and you will eventually love everything about it. Use whatever landing technique makes you happy (and continue to practice other variations on that theme). What engine do you have? From your description of going up like an elevator, I take it that it isn't an O-235. If an O-320, you might want to consider installing an 18 horizontal tail assembly to increase the tail authority while decreasing the stick loads.
JimC

 

[zane]

How's your CG? I am finding out that my 170 seems to flare much easier and less snappy when I have some weight in the way back. I've heard horror stories of guys that had to add power on flare to get some extra elevator authority because their CG was so forward. Stall speed increases with a forward CG, so it might be a factor...especially if you find yourself dropping them in more often than ballooning.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[oldbaldguy]

The landing gods smiled on the Old Bald Guy today and also provided him with an epiphany or two. After a couple of days of really bad viz, I went out this morning in somewhat better conditions. Flew around a while just for the fun of it, then got some altitude and started slowing down to see what would happen. Low and behold, I discovered that my airplane will hold a given altitude with the airspeed pretty much off the dial as long as it has power and seemed perfectly content to do so for as long as I wanted to hang suspended in space. Armed with that knowledge, I flew around some more then headed back for some landings. The winds at home field here are always a grab bag of whatever. Neither the AWOS, the flags nor the two windsox ever agree with each other, ever, so you just have to pick a runway and go for it. This time I flew a reasonably sized pattern and not something befitting an Airbus and got my speeds and rates of decent under control long before I made the turn to final. I used all four runways and was rewarded with decent landings each time, all of which were suitably short, bounceless, etc. I am now happier than before and realized a couple of things while ruminating on the flight as I rode my bike to and fro on the airport afterward. To begin with, I'm thinking my landings maybe aren't as bad as I think. While gassing up, I watched a couple of Cessnas, a 172 and a 182, land on opposing runways in the same winds I had. One got a chirp......chirp, chirpitty-chirp, sqweeeeeeech, chirp.........chirp landing and the other, the 182, got a CHIRP, chirp...chirp landing. Both landings out-chirped me by a long shot and appeared from my vantage point to be uglier than mine. Secondly, we have a concrete runway here with grooves cut in the surface to dissipate water. I get some pretty healthy chirps every time I land on this runway, but nothing at all when I land on the asphalt runway. Third, today I flew the airplane instead of letting it find its own way. I've told so many people that my airplane has survived 61 years because it knows more about flying than I do that I think I began to believe it. That might be true about something that demands as little of a pilot as a 172 or 182, but these old Pipers were built when men were men and not many little girls flew 'em. When I told my wife that the 12 always flies better when I tell it want I want it to do instead of letting it do whatever it wants, she said, "I was wondering when you were gonna realize that this ain't romance, it's aviation." Wonder why I didn't think of that? My thanks to all of you who took the time to write with advice and encouragement -- you all got me to thinking and headed in the right direction. If you're ever down Georgia way, look me up; I'd love to meet you guys.

OBG out.

 

[Greg Smith]

Good job, sounds like you got it squared away.

I figured you were in Georgia when you mentioned the smoke... I flew up from Mexico last week over the gulf, and we diverted east. Made landfall near St. Marks, then over Albany, Atlanta, and Knoxville on the way to Cincinnati. The fires were impressive, even from 38 thousand.

 

[12Geezer2]

OBG- Sounds like it's coming around for you :lol: As my old instructor once told me "you have to be the boss, you can't just be along for the ride". Stay alert and stick with it.

 

[jerryderen92]

OBG: try a wheel landing on asphalt / concrete...not 3 point. Carry a hair more speed (I cross the numbers at 60 and pull the throttle to idle)...flare similar to a 3-point, holding off until the mains squeek, then apply forward stick to keep the tail up...hold it there until you can't, then slowly let tail drop followed by fully aft stick. Gives you better control and visibility...once you do this 10 times or so, you'll never go back to 3-point

 

[Waldo M]

I've been flying Cubs for a long time and must have missed something, which is certainly possible. Would you care to explain how this technique provides you with better control?

 

[cubdriver2]

I've been flying Cubs for a long time and must have missed something, which is certainly possible. Would you care to explain how this technique provides you with better control?

It actually works pretty good, even with a full stall plant it

Glenn