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PA-11 or PA-18-95 or Modified J-3

j3flyer

Registered User
Atlanta
I need advise. I just can't seem to pull the trigger on this. I go from "ready to order", to I don't want to make a huge mistake, again. My choices range from a Wag Aero Sport Trainer, to a Legend kit. I'm going to put a few things out there and see what kind of advise I get. Pardon me if some of this seems familiar from earlier posts, but again, I do not want to make the mistake of building the wrong airplane (for me). I restored my J-3 10 years ago. I'm ready to break free and do an experimental Cub, but with some options. Questions...

1. If I want everything off the shelf, easy to fit, and relatively cheaper than any "kit", then it seems like a J-3 frame, no flap wing is the answer. Does anyone see any issues with the following...Eliminate the nose tank in favor of 2 wing tanks with header.. Move the seat back a few inches, for more legroom. I know the rear stick would have to be cut, bent and welded. Install PA-11 style metal interior panels. No electric, simple panel with an O-200 or C-85. Wing would be a D&E no-flap standard wing. All cowling would be "off the shelf " Wag Aero. I recently flew my J-3 from the front seat and the spar was not an issue.

2. Go with the PA-18 fuselage, interior, seats, and the same no-flap wing. Nice, but will the cowling, engine mount, etc. cost more going this way. Basically a PA 18-95.

3. I know a lot of people will say things about flaps, engines, etc. Picture an experimental PA-11, non electric, or a PA-18-95. That's my goal.

4. If you have any leads on a fuselage ( jig built experimental) let me know. As soon as I find a fuselage, I can then order the correct wing kit.
 
I need advise. I just can't seem to pull the trigger on this. I go from "ready to order", to I don't want to make a huge mistake, again. My choices range from a Wag Aero Sport Trainer, to a Legend kit. I'm going to put a few things out there and see what kind of advise I get. Pardon me if some of this seems familiar from earlier posts, but again, I do not want to make the mistake of building the wrong airplane (for me). I restored my J-3 10 years ago. I'm ready to break free and do an experimental Cub, but with some options. Questions...

1. If I want everything off the shelf, easy to fit, and relatively cheaper than any "kit", then it seems like a J-3 frame, no flap wing is the answer. Does anyone see any issues with the following...Eliminate the nose tank in favor of 2 wing tanks with header.. Move the seat back a few inches, for more legroom. I know the rear stick would have to be cut, bent and welded. Install PA-11 style metal interior panels. No electric, simple panel with an O-200 or C-85. Wing would be a D&E no-flap standard wing. All cowling would be "off the shelf " Wag Aero. I recently flew my J-3 from the front seat and the spar was not an issue.

2. Go with the PA-18 fuselage, interior, seats, and the same no-flap wing. Nice, but will the cowling, engine mount, etc. cost more going this way. Basically a PA 18-95.

3. I know a lot of people will say things about flaps, engines, etc. Picture an experimental PA-11, non electric, or a PA-18-95. That's my goal.

4. If you have any leads on a fuselage ( jig built experimental) let me know. As soon as I find a fuselage, I can then order the correct wing kit.

You might consider a PA-18-95 build with an open cowl. Another consideration is the time/expense of a 90HP machine vs a 150HP machine....

Tim
 
Mine started out as a J3, a couple J3s. Now its got metal spar J3/Pa11 wings, clipped front spar, one 17 gal left wing ( 2 - 12 gal would be better ) Top deck, seats, controls, trim, baggage and FWF are Pa18-95. Power is an 0200. It's light and I like the way it flies and it climbs great, no rocketship but does what I want.



Glenn
 
I finished my Wag-Aero cub in 2002. The fuselage frame is more like a PA11 with an "X" brace where the 12 gallon nose tank is on a J3, so no tubes to get in the way of your feet from the front seat. 12 gallon tank in each wing and a 2 gallon nose header tank. The engine is an O-200 converted to a -8. It flies great the front or back seat, but if I did it again I would do a PA18 top deck to get the spars out of the cockpit.

Glenn you have a beautiful Cub!

Here's mine...

 
Mine started out as a J3, a couple J3s. Now its got metal spar J3/Pa11 wings, clipped front spar, one 17 gal left wing ( 2 - 12 gal would be better ) Top deck, seats, controls, trim, baggage and FWF are Pa18-95. Power is an 0200. It's light and I like the way it flies and it climbs great, no rocketship but does what I want.



Glenn

Glenn's flys nice, in my opinion if it had flaps it would be perfect.
 
get the 18 fuselage. getting rid of the spar in your forehead is priceless if you plan on flying from the front seat.
 
+1

Whether you do a kit or scratch build, eliminating the spar over your head is big. I have a Legend. I sit high enough in the front seat so that S turns are not needed during taxi. I do have 800x6 tires, not big boy tires like Glenn, but I think you will be much happier with an 18-like fuselage.

Rich
 
The Legend Cub is a fine kit as is a Carbon Cub. I'm not sure home much you can "customize" either the kit contents or the frame itself. If you contact Jay DeRosier at Javron he is excellent at partial kits, full kits, and custom frames. Want a J-3 frame but overhead trim? Jay can do it. He will pretty much build up your kit any way you want. Same for partial kits if you want to use different wings etc.

it it is worth a call

Bill
 
A PA-11 fuselage with an 18 top deck, C90 out front would fit the bill nicely for what you describe. Flaps or not, it would be a great performer. I second Bill's suggestion to contact Javron. He can build whatever you decide.
 
I built up a PA-18 fuselage with Wag Aero parts for everything else. Big PA-18 Tail and PA-18-95 FWF with an O-200. It's a fantastic airplane! You'd love it!
FWIW.....The Wag Aero Kit is not a "complete kit" There will still be many little items that you will need to buy. In comparison, the Legend cub kit is much more complete. I haven't seen a Javron so I can't comment on that one. I was nearly complete with my build when Legend came out with their kit. I would go with the Legend kit if I were to do it again....

Dave Ganzer
N118DG
 
I've got to say it, take a look at the Bearhawk LSA, fits what you're asking for though not a cub. Lots more room though and a nice little plane.
 
I bought a partially built experimental PA 11.... It has the spars inside..which I don't really mind...I fly my J3-L4 from the front all the time with no issues. I'm sure it would be better without...but the fuselage is all welded and primed and I'm already covering the wings. It has an O200 for it and I think putting a closed cowl vs a J3 cowl is not much of a price difference overall. I like the look of the PA 11 cowl and the PA18-135 cowl so I'll do one or the other of those, the 11 cowl is tight..I have extended baggage with external door and left hand flip up upper door. Mine is a scratch built not a kit...but if you like some of the ideas I'm glad to share pictures. I bought it off this site in classifieds. I have all the big parts and all the fabric plus many extras and I've spent around $21k so far all including a 300 hr O200 with b&c starter and 8A alternator that runs off the fron vac pump gear...I'm going to do a combo steam gauge iPad stratus2 panel and either 26 or 29" airstreaks. Im shooting for around 40k when all done. It has balanced tail and J3 rudder plus 2 18gal colt tanks with small header tank. Here is a picture the guy I bought it from took with it partially assembled for fit it also has an adjustable/folding front seat.
 

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Hi Dan,

It looks pretty good! These things are way easier than new girlfriends (or wives). Please post your progress (unlike me) if you can.
 
Whatever you do use the PA-18 top deck and get the spars out of the cabin. That gives you the option of sitting high even if you think you don't want to at the moment. You're worried about making a mistake - a J-3 top deck would be the number 1 mistake for this project. If you decide you want spars in the cabin later, you could always make up some dummy ones!

The only good reason I can think of for having spars in the cabin is to use wooden spars and have them on display.


You said you want to build with standard off-the-shelf parts. If you go for the PA-11/PA-18-95 closed cowl you will have to live with the factory down-thrust. The J-3 engine mount/cowl option provides zero thrust line. The J-3 cowl means J-3 boot cowl and windscreen which they say is higher drag than the PA-11 set up. The decision here is an appearance/cruise speed trade off with over-the-nose visibility as a secondary consideration.


I hope that helps.


Andrew.
 
Having built both from scratch I actually think it's easier to jig and build the PA18 top deck.
 
Unless you have a welder (TIG preferably) and good welding skills, a sheet metal brake and shear (in YOUR hanger), air rivet hammer and dollies, etc., etc., you will save nothing going the parts route. I'm on my third one and it's no picnic!!! Do you know how many small parts a Cub has and all the hardware involved in putting one together out of parts? It's a real pain trying to dig these small parts up with shipping etc., as well as the correct length bolts, screws, nuts, washers, on and on.

If I ever do another Cub build, it will be a kit. A complete kit including everything!

A Super Legend with an Lycoming YO-233 up front would be my #1 choice. Weld the second door shut and cover it!

http://www.legend.aero/shop/item.aspx/super-legend-kit/215/

http://www.legend.aero/pdf/2015_Legend_Kit_Order_Sheet.pdf


Best wishes on your project.

Greg
 
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I've got to say it, take a look at the Bearhawk LSA, fits what you're asking for though not a cub. Lots more room though and a nice little plane.


I was very impressed with the Bearhawks!

Would be worth a look.

I think Crash has some good points. it takes lots of time fitting pre-made parts, now building all of them? Guys I have seen on that took 7-10 years, if they finished.
 
I have a j-3/ wag aero fuselage that I would like to get rid of. Problem is that I'm in western SD. BTW I really liked the flaps that I had on mine.
 

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Weld the second door shut and cover it? That might be a good idea - are all the Legend fuselages built with a second door?

All you have to do is make a takeoff with both doors open and you will see the wisdom of that move. But it is nice to have the option for a seaplane. Could you just remove the handle and glue it shut with surface tape? Then the next guy would have the option.
 
Weld the second door shut and cover it? That might be a good idea - are all the Legend fuselages built with a second door?

All you have to do is make a takeoff with both doors open and you will see the wisdom of that move. But it is nice to have the option for a seaplane. Could you just remove the handle and glue it shut with surface tape? Then the next guy would have the option.

Weld the tube in and then you can put the throttle where it's meant to be.
 
Weld the tube in and then you can put the throttle where it's meant to be.
Mine has the left door with the relocated throttle. I wondered about the location but now having used it for a while, I don't even notice that it is not where Piper put it. I like the left door option for float operations.
 
My comment about welding the second door shut on the Super Legend has more to do with keeping heat in the plane during cold weather. Which up here can be 12 months of the year. It's hard enough sealing up one door,

I wish they had an option for just one door. It makes a lot more sense in a real Bush plane.

Crash
 
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I bought a sport trainer that is close to what I was building. So, I'd sell my project. wings-installing internal struts & wires, fuselage-closing front and tail post, complete j3 tail feathers, core 0235 Lycoming, j3 struts, enough tubing to complete.L4 panel, gear legs And a lot more. located west Alabama.
 
We haven't heard from the op?

He was looking for a source for a jig-built experimental Cub. Everything I have seen says to check with Javron. Am I correct in assuming that a complete, welded fuselage with bird cage is around twelve grand?

I spent most of Saturday in the front seat of a J-3. At 75 and six feet with my boots on, I was quite comfortable. I agree, the forward visibility is better with the PA-18 spar arrangement, but in a Cub, what is coming up from behind is of more concern. If cost and weight were equal, I would go with the 18-95 style. But I don't think cost and weight are identical - I shall stick with the J-3.
 
My comment about welding the second door shut on the Super Legend has more to do with keeping heat in the plane during cold weather. Which up here can be 12 months of the year. It's hard enough sealing up one door,

I wish they had an option for just one door. It makes a lot more sense in a real Bush plane.

Crash

Crash,

Another note is the latch on their door. It is backwards. You have to pull up on it to open the door. Not sure what they were thinking.

Tim
 
It sounds like Javron is the way to go. Bill Rusks thread has a nice section from his visit to Javron, and it looks like Jay is committed customer service. His stuff looks really nice. I have to agree an 18 top deck would be the way to go, if I were staring from scratch that's probably what I would do. Also Crash is right....looking for, researching, and trying to figure out what hardware is needed and buying random parts takes HOURS. A kit would be nice....having all, or most of the stuff you need would make things easier. I don't have a set of plans to explicitly follow....I have some Wag Aero plans, but they are vague and other than looking at controls installation, they do not represent what I have very well. Christian Sturms site has provided some good drawing resources, but other than that, I rely on things like supercub.org and Bill Rusks thread for advice and council...thanks Bill :) I plan some other mods, but this will mostly be a PA11 clone. I just love the freedom of being able to modify and customize at will, and I really love that I will be able to do the annuals when I'm done. If your limited on funds a bit a full kit may seem expensive, but if you don't like fabricating or don't have the skills or tools....buy a kit. I suppose you could find a used O200 or similar to put on a Jav kit to help offset the cost, but these are all personal decisions. This is from my limited experience....there are many on this site far wiser and more skilled than myself:) as Bill R always says "Hope this helps".
 
Being also 6ft and having flown most of some Saturdays in the past I can think of a word that describes how it felt to spend that much time in a J3 Cub........ And that word wasn't "comfortable".... Ditto for my PA11 which we flew to Alaska with a compass only....... Thought i would need back surgery some days .
....The 18 setup is the way to go.
I had a fella tell me this fall after spending $9000 on a ATV that he could ride the woods roads all day in a snowmoble suit, and never got tired or cold???? He was parking a new 2500 Silverado and riding roads he could have just drove the truck with xm radio and a heater.Daaa
Guess we are all different.
 
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