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Oshkosh STOL demonstration

MT12

FRIEND
Montana
I'm just back in Montana after 5 days at Osh. As usual an amazing show. One of the most remarkable parts of it this year was the crowd and announcer response to the STOL demonstration. All were openly cheering and routing for short performance. They loved it. Only 3 times over the days did I see crowds actually rush to the flight line fence to watch the demo; #1 the STOL demonstration, #2 the model aircraft RC show-if you could really call a plane with a 10' wingspan a model; and the jet racer car.

The 'open mike' announcer did a good job of expressing his amazement in the Breeden's and others skills and the AK promoter did a great job explaining what was going on and real life use of these skills. I'll be shocked if this doesn't start an annual demonstration.
 
From the EAA website.......


July 31, 2014 - Frank Knapp took top honors at the first STOL competition at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2014, with a winning distance of 134 feet.
Each finalist of the short takeoff and landing competition was allowed two runs, with the lowest total giving them their final score.
Knapp and his airplane, Lil’ Cub (N85CX), took off in 72 feet, and then landed at 62 feet, giving him a winning total of 134 feet.
Taking second place was Bobby Breeden, with a total of 197 feet (72 feet at takeoff and 125 feet at landing), while third place went to Steve Henry at 206 feet. Both of his runs totaled 206 feet—98-foot takeoff and 108-foot landing, and 102-foot takeoff and 104-foot landing.
Scot Warren took fourth with a takeoff of 115 feet and a landing of 151 feet, for a total of 266 feet; Pops Dory took fifth place with a takeoff of 98 feet and a landing at 190 feet, for a total of 288 feet; and Dennis Wittenberg took sixth at 315 feet, including a takeoff of 152 feet and a landing of 163 feet.
The STOL planes also will do demonstration flights from 6 to 8 p.m. today at the ultralight runway.
Knapp says the reception of the STOL planes and pilots from the EAA crowds has been incredible. “The people here really care about general aviation, and I think the normal guy can really relate to this and our lifestyle.”


Bill (biting my tongue)
 
Monday Show
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There was a huge crowd Friday night.IMG_5947.jpgIMG_5959.jpgIMG_5979.jpgIMG_5992.jpgIMG_6024.jpg
 

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I got to compete Monday with my J-3 a friend flew up for me. It was the icing on the cake for an amazing summer. I only wished I could have played Friday night with everyone but my J-3 had to head home and I was stuck watching the show. Here is a shot of about 1/3 of the crowd last night at the ultralight strip.

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I got video of the crows reaction on Tuesday and will try to get it edited and posted. As if I don't have so much of that to do already :)

Chris
 

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image.jpg:lol:I was watching some of the videos and was wondering if there was an stc for mounting bazookas on 18's or if it's just the L4's
 

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Here is a email that Frank sent out after day 2 showing the standinds

"Everyone pulled off the cross wind yesterday and the crowd was energized! This evening will be even more exciting! Talk to your wind God, pray for
a solid 10-15 N-S!!

STANDINGS:
DAY ONE (July 28)-
Bobby Breeden 53/53 40/DQ
Bob Barrows 110/140 94/250
Chris Nesin 143/160 115/96
Dennis Wittenberg 50/118 62/86
Doug Wilson 74/93 68/76 (Had to leave for work)
Ed Doyle 53/136 48/DQ
Frank Knapp 42/22 38/42


DAY TWO (July 29)-
Bob Breeden 72/130 55/92
Joe Dory 60/132 62/125
Mike Olson 60/DQ 74/DQ
Roger Dubbert (Scratch)
Scott Warren 62/160 69/132
Steve Henry 62/98 53/70
 
Frank Knapp 42/22 38/42

Is the 22 a landing lenght?? How can an airplane land in 22 feet??? Simply amazing result.



Somebody must have a video of the event somewhere.
 
Twenty- two feet is a very tight landing area. I am told that the number relates to the distance between main wheel touchdown and main wheel stop. That, in very short stops, is a misleading number.
 
For most of the landings, including the one above, the tailwheel never even touches the ground. Is it then misleading? Are you here just to be upset at the rules? No one here is trying to be misleading.
 
I apologize - did not mean to upset you. Landing an aircraft to me implies measuring the space needed, and that is what I measure. I have no idea what the official rules are.
 
I apologize - did not mean to upset you. Landing an aircraft to me implies measuring the space needed, and that is what I measure. I have no idea what the official rules are.

Bob, for some reason these contests (short field and spot) have always been mains on the line. I've never seen one where your tailwheel had to be past the line, but as I have always said there is a lot of difference between a contest and the airplanes and techniques you would use, and reality - (i.e. most of us don't fly around in the backcountry with 2 pints of fuel).

sj
 
I'm just glad the STOL airplanes got the main airshow exposure. Nothing to whine about there.
 
Fun stuff to ponder. I think the logic was that it is OK to drag the TW in the water but the mains need to be on the gravel bar.
I believe the stopping distance is from the line (edge of the gravel bar) to the mains. Is dragging it in realistic? Quite likely. Again think rivers and gravel bars, you can fly low over a river, or possibly on it via skiing, then chop the throttle to land. It might be fun to string a piece of crepe paper between two poles to simulate trees or some other obstacle prior to the line to see a slipping approach to landing.
Is weight hauling ability a requirement? Depends. If you live near the playground (Alaska, Idaho etc) and only do day trips to play then the Frank Knapp Little Cub is just the ticket. Lots of options and lots of ways to have fun. Is nitrous fair? I have seen it used in the backcountry to allow use of a gravel bar that would have not been doable without it (DW).
I do think the categories are important for the contests. A powered parachute can beat everything but it is unrealistic to put that in with a C-185. Not everything "experimental" can be lumped together as well. You can build a kit of the C-185 but that is not the same as an LiL Cub and should not be compared as such.

All contests have their foibles but even so they really elevate the bar and allow us to see what "can" be done. The entire community has benefited from the likes of the Olsen Kazoom, Keller Carbon Cub, Breeden Cub, DW, Paul Claus, Knapp Little Cub, etc. The changes to the Supercub community in the last 10 or 12 years has been staggering. Big Rocks and Long Props showed us all what we could do with a little practice. Prior to that most folks would have never dreamed of doing that type of flying.

Many thanks to all who have raised the bar.

Bill
 
I would like to see a working category. Load the planes up to gross and see what they can do with a load. It is show of what a good competent pilot with lots of practice and a well done plane can do. Besides weight the only real difference between stol competitions and real life is the DQ's can hurt on a gravel bar.:)
 
Sheep season starting soon. STOL ops in crazy places with crazy weather at gross weight. The sport STOL thing may be new but the real world STOL operators have been doing this stuff for a long time.
 
I am happy to see that the folks at Airventure enjoyed the STOL demonstrations, and that they could see some dynamite pilots in action. The people who flew in the STOL demos are all extremely skilled as they handle their aircraft. What a treat for the attendees!

We had a similarly rewarding experience over across the lake at New Holstein! At New Holstein the crowd was excellent, and they were right up front so they could get a closeup view of the pilots and their aircraft. We had an announcer, Jim Dickerson, who was able to give the skinny on each of the pilots and short field operations, providing the listeners with facts and humor and some degree of theater :) Shoot, we even had Ed Doyle come over to show us his stuff.

Perhaps it would be useful to look at STOL performance in mathematical terms. While not mathematically correct, one might break it down as follows:

STOL distance = Ps x Ap x L

Ps= Pilot Skill. Make no bones about it, those who consistently minimize STOL distance know how to fly their aircraft "on the edge", and knowing where the edge is came from many hours of trial and error, and from sometimes hanging it over a bit too far (I would dare to venture a guess that more than one has bent up an airplane at some point).

Ap= Aircraft Performance. If you give Bill Rusk my stock airplane to fly in STOL (which I did at NH), then put him into Ed Doyle's airplane to fly STOL, he will have better distances in Eddie's airplane. Period. When I look at the aircraft that were flown at Airventure, they are several permutations away from my stock PA18.

L= Luck. Atmospheric conditions dictate so much about aircraft performance, not the least of which is wind. Ed Doyle can have the most perfect approach going for him all the way to the target line and a gust of wind can make him land way too long, and a drop of wind can make him land way too short. Being lucky in this case might mean having no significant change in wind, and it can be one of those situations where it is "better to be lucky than good :lol:.

I thought I would write this stuff down because there are some pretty darned good sticks over at NH who give consistently excellent performances in stock or near stock PA18, or J3, or PA11.

I hope the exposure of the multitudes at Airventure will lead them to New Holstein next year, that there will be bleachers erected, that there will be a four lane highway needed to handle all the traffic in to see the 2015 New Holstein Short Field Takeoff/Landing/Spot and Flour Bombing Exhibition. Jim "Big Deal" Dickerson is already working on this routine for next year !

Randy the shooter
 
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The reception at EAA was unbelievable. I would bet that over 100,000 people were there and heard about a new type of flying. EAA stressed that is was DEMONSTRATION, there were several different types of planes. The flying was superb especially considering that it was done in front of thousands of people. The EAA people were ecstatic and were cheering the event. the announcers were all excited, one of the organizers stopped me and said that it was the first time she had seen the aerobatic performers run up to the line to watch another act. To repeat what we have said numerous times is landing on a white stripe in the middle of a 5,000 foot runway in an empty airplane is perhaps not real world. No Kidding. It is a demonstration of pilot ability with an effort to control some variables. We can't control them all. I think if we had the planes at gross (and how do you do that??) you would still find that great pilots can still fly really well. What you would lose is the safety margin from flying low and slow light. The distance of the landing is from the landing line to the stopping point, not the touch down point.

I have to thank EAA for having us there and to Frank Knapp for making the initial connections and finding the pilots. It was fun to help with the announcing but a little scattered when listening to the other announcers questions while listening on the head set for scores. Most of what I said was accurate, I think! "Bush" flying and Valdez got a huge amount of publicity and thousands are now aware of another type of flying.
Joe
 
I'm not trying to take anything away from what these people are doing. They have a lot of time and effort into getting proficient enough to do what they do. A 22' take off is very impressive. At gross or light your going to have good pilots showing off what they and there planes can do. I'm not talking about taking the stripped down light part out. I would just like to see a loaded working class added to show off the real world end of it. As far as how you would have to set up groups LSA super cubs and so on. You would have to weigh the plane pilot full of fuel then add weights to bring them up to gross.
 
We had some friends visiting this summer from Switzerland. One of them was an active pilot some years ago when he lived in the States. He owned a Cessna 310 and flew it a lot on business. The other fellow's experience was all as a passenger on commercial airline flights. I asked them if they'd like a ride in the Carbon Cub and of course they did. We overflew the river, which is just minutes from our airport and I asked each if they would like to land on a gravel bar. The non-pilot was amazed as I touched down just on the edge of the water and stopped a short distance later. We got out and he was just beside himself that we'd done what we'd done. He then raved about the freedom in the US. He wondered about off-airport landings in other places. In an email later he said: “I will never forget the flying adventure.!!! thank you!” On our landing at the next gravel bar I touched down in the water about ten feet short of the gravel and the water sprayed to his further amazement. The river was about 4” deep there but it made a big splash.

The Cessna 310 pilot was almost as amazed at what could be achieved and where we could land.

Real world off-airport landings are a neat experience and a great introduction to those not familiar with it. And I agree that most pilots and aviation enthusiasts aren’t aware of it. Having a demo at Oshkosh was a great idea.
 
It was fun to watch the STOL demonstrations at OSH having gotten to experience it at Valdez a few times. The crowd was really into it. The event at the ultralight field on Friday evening was a hit as well. We got there kinda early and and got a front row spot against the fence. There were so many around the perimeter that not everyone could see so we moved back so people that had never seen this type of flying could see. I was amazed at the enthusiasm, there were lots of loud uhs and ahhs as the pilot's did their thing. It was really fun just to watch the crowd and their reactions.
 
I forgot to mention the big news in STOL that came to light at Oshkosh. Cuzoom has a new pilot, Eddie is out and this is the new pilot. Look out Bobby. ;)
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