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Oops, darn it...

Yes tragic. I hope the fatalities are limited to 2 as stated. I read rumors of possibly more.

The track on the Cherokee showed it was on its 4th lap downwind doing touch and goes at the field after coming over from the coast.

No info on the cub.


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Thanks Glenn. That pretty much jibes with what I suspected. The low wing airplane .... declaring short approach ..... left turn with the CFI in the right seat with his vision obscured.... letting down into the J-3's path ..... the J-3 looking straight ahead, not up into the sun. A sad day.

I was instructing in a Cherokee doing landings at the busy NORDO OWD airport landing east. When on short final I spotted the outboard half of the wing of a Seabee sticking out from beneath the plane. We went around. When we landed the chief pilot who had seen the whole thing had the Seabee pulled to one side of the runway giving him a talking to about landing straight in without following a traffic pattern. Low wings and high wings don't mix in a traffic pattern very well. The Seabee never saw us at all.
 
I found it surprising that the commentator suggested ADS-B In for the seaplanes but did not strongly suggest they should have a VHF radio.

I'm not saying radio would have prevented the accident but, without it, the J3 crew may not have even have known which runway was active at Winter Haven.

I find it annoying that even AOPA has bought into ADSB as the 'be all end all' of traffic avoidance.

The unapproved iPad technology with any of the pilot apps will show you way more traffic than ADSB- it picks up transponders!!

Also, there seems to be lots of chatter about NORDO ops, but how about the instructor making laps with short approachs? Seems to me that seaplane base is well used, so the instructor should have knowledge that the little float planes will be moving in these areas at these altitudes; if one is flying abnormal approach procedures it would seem a good idea to be aware that your approach might intercept a well used flight altitude and route.

Sad deal, sorry to all involved. Hope we can learn something from the.
 
The unapproved iPad technology with any of the pilot apps will show you way more traffic than ADSB- it picks up transponders!!

The iPad has no built in capability to receive a transponder, 1090 ES, or UAT. It must rely on some other hardware receiver, not just an app, to display any traffic.

A mode C transponder transmits no position information. If only the raw squawk data is received the best a receiver can do is estimate range from signal strength and, if equipped with a directional antenna system, a very approximate azimuth. (ZAON PCAS and FLARM both provided range only capability before ADS-B)

Position data for transponder only aircraft can be derived from air traffic control radar (as range and bearing) and can be included in the TIS uplink. Still requires more than an iPad to receive and display that data.
 
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The ASD-B has always been about control and tracking not safety. There are several better ways to show traffic, cheaper and simpler than the ADS-B with two different freq.’s , ant. Locations and in and out receivers . Too much freedom with people flying around the country and no tracking.
 
Yes, I’m amazed they haven’t had separation issues in past, with Nordic seaplanes coming and going right under the traffic pattern of Winter Haven. Sad deal in any case. That seaplane base is a busy place at times.

MTV
 
Too much freedom with people flying around the country and no tracking.

I respect your right to your opinion, but I can't imagine a scenario where I could agree with a statement that starts "too much Freedom." Can't imagine such a thing. Sorry but as someone who grew up in a military family and spent a lot of time with the (US) military myself, that statement really gets under my skin. You have the right to that opinion and certainly to state it openly without recourse, and I will defend with my life those rights. You're not a bad guy for having that opinion or stating it. But "Too much freedom" just doesn't sit right with me.

I wish I didn't feel compelled to state that.
 
We’ve debated adsb ad nauseam. No need to rehash that on this thread.

sj
 
For my non-electric PA-11 I had an ICOM handheld radio with compatible PTT and two place intercom with 9v battery. Not sure what might have helped in this case but they are available reasonably priced.

Gary

I have an icom in both my Cubs with external coat hangers. They work great, maybe too great. Problem in busy Unicom airspace is your picking up chatter from 80 miles away. It gets stepped on, import jargon, and sometimes unable to understand any of it being all mixed up.
After awhile your listening but really don't hear anything.

Glenn
 
I put a Stratux receiver in our J3. It is useful in the pattern, but, with the lack of space in the cockpit, it can also be a distraction. Handheld Icom also. Seldom talk, mostly listen.
 
just thinking? i wonder how many car accidents there is every day in this country. going home a few days ago, met a old guy coming down the 4 lane highway the wrong way. he didnt have a clue what he was doing. being alert is a big thing.
 
Maybe we've gotten to point where we depend on, spend time watching, and believe it makes us safe to give attention to an inside cockpit gadget for traffic avoidance, while compromising attention we have to See and Avoid traffic.
 
I have an icom in both my Cubs with external coat hangers. They work great, maybe too great. Problem in busy Unicom airspace is your picking up chatter from 80 miles away. It gets stepped on, import jargon, and sometimes unable to understand any of it being all mixed up.
After awhile your listening but really don't hear anything.

Glenn

Up here, they (who's them?) have started partitioning congested airspace into smaller discrete areas via unique CTAF frequencies. Airports have them already, but areas like National Parks and popular recreational spots get them assigned. Where you live there''s more of everything so maybe that's not feasible due to a lack of available frequencies.

Gary
 
I rely on Look/See/Radio, not always that good!!! A white Cub/Cessna will just fade away over snow even as I am looking at it. Having at least a radio would have allowed both aircraft to communicate position.
DENNY
 
Maybe we've gotten to point where we depend on, spend time watching, and believe it makes us safe to give attention to an inside cockpit gadget for traffic avoidance, while compromising attention we have to See and Avoid traffic.
Maybe? I've been preaching that for 50+ years. The influx of "glass" cockpits has increased the dependency upon the inside. Some of it can be blamed on the FAA when they started requiring the use of instruments before solo. That pushed the new pilots inside the cockpit rather than looking outside.
 
Maybe? I've been preaching that for 50+ years. The influx of "glass" cockpits has increased the dependency upon the inside. Some of it can be blamed on the FAA when they started requiring the use of instruments before solo. That pushed the new pilots inside the cockpit rather than looking outside.

Instrument training is not required pre-solo.

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Instrument training is not required pre-solo.

Not required but is recommended. May I suggest a review of Chapter 3 of the "Airplane Flying Handbook" which includes a description of the "integrated" or "composite" method of flight instruction.

"When introducing basic flight maneuvers to a beginning pilot, it is recommended that the “integrated” or “composite” method offlight instruction be used. This means the use of outside references and flight instruments to establish and maintain desired flight attitudes and airplane performance. When beginning pilots use this technique, they achieve a more precise and competent overall piloting ability. Although this method of airplane control may become second nature with experience, the beginning pilot needs to make a determined effort to master the technique. In all cases, a pilot’s visual skills need to be sufficiently developed for long-term, safe, and effective aircraft control. "

ref - https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/f...als/aviation/airplane_handbook/04_afh_ch3.pdf
 
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If you want to know how the up and coming pilots feel, try reading the comments associated with the AOPA video. Some of the outrage expressed that an airplane is allowed to operate without a radio and ADS-B is a sign of what’s likely to come, eventually.
 
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For me, it’s difficult to understand the apparent acceptance of overlapping traffic patterns between the airport and Brown’s. I wonder if they’ve had discussions to try to establish better separation.

There is no way I’d want to work landings and takeoffs right under a busy student training pattern. Maybe they have tried to sort this out, but regardless of see and avoid, ADS-B or any other safeguard, that just seems like an accident waiting to happen, and I’m betting the attorneys are lining up.

MTV
 
For me, it’s difficult to understand the apparent acceptance of overlapping traffic patterns between the airport and Brown’s. I wonder if they’ve had discussions to try to establish better separation.

Sometimes the obvious doesn't seem obvious without the wisdom of hindsight. 2 killed in a midair between a Robinson and a PA-28 at KCHD about 2 years ago. Overlapping traffic patterns had worked fine until the PA-28 did a short approach. Many years earlier 4 killed in a midair at P48 when a J3 on downwind was hit by a glider doing the last loop of an aerobatic demo ride. The glider was in the "box" but the box and downwind overlapped.

I have refused to tow when I didn't like a conflicting traffic situation. Another tow pilot jumped in and carried on. No accident so I suppose I was being over cautious, or maybe not.
 
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Sorry for the confusion, my statement was sarcasm. Anyway after flying 24 years in the Army I’ve seen some busy wild places. Most of the time there were fields for training and fields for daily ops. My best guess was we were all on the same sheet of music, so min. Conflicts. There were entry and exit points, alt.’s published, and patterns. Much easier to pull off when everyone has the game plan and adhere’s to it. The Browns run a good operation and truly sad when something like this happens.
 
No accident so I suppose I was being over cautious, or maybe not.

That’s the problem when evaluating safety- but IMO it’s important to remember that the absence of an accident does not define safety. I’ve said no plenty of times when others went ahead and made the flight. In all but one they made it just fine, but it didn’t mean it was safe.
 
I just got back from a 4 day trip down through FL and back, and the density level of traffic in FL is quite amazing.
I didn’t watch the video(s) as I prefer to have my own interpretation, but AOPA seems to be a bit lost these days if they are jumping on the “YouTube accident review” wagon. We already have yahoos doing that.

The polk school Cherokee came over to shoot touch and goes at winter haven….. because it’s too congested at home?


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