Olibuilt
MEMBER
Montreal, Canada
P mags have been working flawlessly. Engine is very easy to start, cold or hot. I've changed sparkplugs twice since, just because they are not expensive to buy.
Have not hand prop it since the p-mag, shame on me.
Olibuilt 's New Cub project
- Thread starter Olibuilt
- Start date
P mags have been working flawlessly. Engine is very easy to start, cold or hot. I've changed sparkplugs twice since, just because they are not expensive to buy.
Have not hand prop it since the p-mag, shame on me.
Rob
Registered User
AZ06
That was fun :smile:
I never really realized how much they look like a shopping cart falling out of the sky.
Merry Christmas! I love this thread!
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Cut power quick plus brakes applied nose drops despite full up elevator. It's still a pilot control option to smooth the flare.
Gary
Gary
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
And 182s are nose heavy, especially on amphibs.
A story about opening up the angle between floats and airframe: After an incident, I needed a replacement airplane. I was told the Aircraft Division would have a 185 rigged on floats for me in a day or two.
Years before, they acquired military surplus EDO 3430 straight floats that were rigged for Cessna 195s. These floats were all brand new, never used by the military. 3430s are a very nice 185 float for working, but 195 rigging?
These mechanics had done some careful measuring years before, and found the 195 rigging had longer spreader bars, so floats were wider….not a bad thing, but rear struts were too long for 185. So, cut off the rear struts, and voila….185 floats.
Well, apparently, somewhere along the line, either someone forgot to write that number down, or the paperwork was lost. So, in this case, somebody decided to work from memory. We all know how that works.
I arrive in ANC to pick up my new ride, and just looking at the plane sitting on floats on the water, it seemed pretty nose high. But, it’d been a while since I flew a 185 on EDOs, so, whatever. I completed a careful pre flight, and taxied out to conduct a maintenance test flight.
A normal takeoff and initial climb, but as I start the accel to climb speed the thing starts vibrating like a a dog sh#$ting peach pits. Power to idle, and land. Hood Tower asks what’s going on, and now I’m the one shaking. I taxi back to parking and explain to Maintenance there’s something wrong with the plane.
There had been a recent management change there, so a meeting was convened……with one of their pilots volunteered to do a “proper” flight test….. Like an idiot, I go along for the ride.
We take off, the thing is shaking hard, and the Gypsy in the left seat is just sitting there. He says “This doesn’t seem too bad”. Incredulous, I asked him what our airspeed was. Him “Damn, I can’t read the instrument, it’s shaking so bad it’s a blur….”. And, now, we’re over the Inlet, northbound. Return to Hood, land, park, and my pilot is shaking as bad as the plane. And I’m really questioning my judgement.
Told Maintenance to figure it out and call me when it’s done.
turns out they’d cut the rear vertical struts off a wee bit more than specified in the paperwork they suddenly found. Only thing we could figure was that what we were feeling were power pulses off that big 88 inch two bladed prop hitting the tails of the float decks.
A “common” bootleg improvement these guys did on at least some of our 180s rigged on 2870 EDOs was to drill one more hole in aft struts and cut off the top of those struts, increasing the angle between the floats and plane. The “proper” cutoff for the 195 float rigging of our 185s did the same thing. In this case, they’d just taken it further…with weird but scary results.
MTV
A story about opening up the angle between floats and airframe: After an incident, I needed a replacement airplane. I was told the Aircraft Division would have a 185 rigged on floats for me in a day or two.
Years before, they acquired military surplus EDO 3430 straight floats that were rigged for Cessna 195s. These floats were all brand new, never used by the military. 3430s are a very nice 185 float for working, but 195 rigging?
These mechanics had done some careful measuring years before, and found the 195 rigging had longer spreader bars, so floats were wider….not a bad thing, but rear struts were too long for 185. So, cut off the rear struts, and voila….185 floats.
Well, apparently, somewhere along the line, either someone forgot to write that number down, or the paperwork was lost. So, in this case, somebody decided to work from memory. We all know how that works.
I arrive in ANC to pick up my new ride, and just looking at the plane sitting on floats on the water, it seemed pretty nose high. But, it’d been a while since I flew a 185 on EDOs, so, whatever. I completed a careful pre flight, and taxied out to conduct a maintenance test flight.
A normal takeoff and initial climb, but as I start the accel to climb speed the thing starts vibrating like a a dog sh#$ting peach pits. Power to idle, and land. Hood Tower asks what’s going on, and now I’m the one shaking. I taxi back to parking and explain to Maintenance there’s something wrong with the plane.
There had been a recent management change there, so a meeting was convened……with one of their pilots volunteered to do a “proper” flight test….. Like an idiot, I go along for the ride.
We take off, the thing is shaking hard, and the Gypsy in the left seat is just sitting there. He says “This doesn’t seem too bad”. Incredulous, I asked him what our airspeed was. Him “Damn, I can’t read the instrument, it’s shaking so bad it’s a blur….”. And, now, we’re over the Inlet, northbound. Return to Hood, land, park, and my pilot is shaking as bad as the plane. And I’m really questioning my judgement.
Told Maintenance to figure it out and call me when it’s done.
turns out they’d cut the rear vertical struts off a wee bit more than specified in the paperwork they suddenly found. Only thing we could figure was that what we were feeling were power pulses off that big 88 inch two bladed prop hitting the tails of the float decks.
A “common” bootleg improvement these guys did on at least some of our 180s rigged on 2870 EDOs was to drill one more hole in aft struts and cut off the top of those struts, increasing the angle between the floats and plane. The “proper” cutoff for the 195 float rigging of our 185s did the same thing. In this case, they’d just taken it further…with weird but scary results.
MTV
Rob
Registered User
AZ06
My feeble float less mind kept saying power.... power... power.. ah shiv... you're all plopped out now, may as well move out of the way for the next in line :lol::lol::lol:
Rob
Registered User
AZ06
Olibuilt
MEMBER
Montreal, Canada
Airplane is sitting on it's wheels. Fly wires are fitted. Wing to float angle looks good to me.
Foot steps are not fitted yet. They are heavy. I'm for a simple light solution..
Fly wire is going trough cargo pod door. Will fabricate another door instead of cutting this one, 2 aluminum doors in fact.
Foot steps are not fitted yet. They are heavy. I'm for a simple light solution..
Fly wire is going trough cargo pod door. Will fabricate another door instead of cutting this one, 2 aluminum doors in fact.
Attachments
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Cut lightening holes in the web to reduce the weight.
Something like this.
A bit hard to see but should give you the idea.Attachments
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
You may want to make those steps extend further forward to make it easier for filling the gas tanks. It's hard to reach with the fuel nozzle in one hand while trying to hold on with the other while standing on the toes of one foot.
StalledOut
Registered User
Anchorage
Not to mention that step looks pretty high, must be a good stretch to get from the top of the float up onto it.
I have a bar mid way up the strut and a peg up higher to step onto when fueling.
I have a bar mid way up the strut and a peg up higher to step onto when fueling.
NunavutPA-12
FRIEND
67.8N,115.1W CYCO Canada
Olibuilt
MEMBER
Montreal, Canada
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Looks great Oli, you got it done. Now something you likely haven't been involved in prior to this. Retractable landing gear with the option of sometimes landing with it up and sometimes landing with it down. The airplane doesn't know the difference. This is 100% on the pilot to get it right. There have been many pilots, some with many years and hours of flying who have landed in the water with the gear down. Get in the habit after EVERY takeoff of retracting the landing gear. This even if you plan on staying in the land airport traffic pattern.
Include in your after take off procedures. GEAR UP Every time, whether you have just taken off from water or land. Get in the habit.
Also when landing, Announce to yourself THIS IS A LAND LANDING, GEAR DOWN or THIS IS A WATER LANDING, GEAR UP Then visually check each gear to assure it is in the correct position. If you can't see the gear (all four wheels), it helps to mount a mirror or two in a location which will ensure you can see the gear. ALL FOUR OF THEM. I've seen a mechanical failure in which the right nose gear was down with all four lights indicating up. Fortunately there was just a sudden stop with no further damage.
When you are on final approach repeat this check. I say it out loud to help ensure my brain is engaged. I've known at least five of my friends and acquaintances who have landed in the water with the gear down. One of them drowned as a result. There are also you-tube videos showing how fast the airplane flips on it's back.
I've also known some who have landed on the runway with the gear up. One who did it four times (that I know of). That usually, just grinds down the bottom of the floats. If they are fiberglass, it usually is a lot of glass.
This is critical and can not be emphasized enough!
THIS IS A LAND LANDING, GEAR DOWN
THIS IS A WATER LANDING, GEAR UP
Include in your after take off procedures. GEAR UP Every time, whether you have just taken off from water or land. Get in the habit.
Also when landing, Announce to yourself THIS IS A LAND LANDING, GEAR DOWN or THIS IS A WATER LANDING, GEAR UP Then visually check each gear to assure it is in the correct position. If you can't see the gear (all four wheels), it helps to mount a mirror or two in a location which will ensure you can see the gear. ALL FOUR OF THEM. I've seen a mechanical failure in which the right nose gear was down with all four lights indicating up. Fortunately there was just a sudden stop with no further damage.
When you are on final approach repeat this check. I say it out loud to help ensure my brain is engaged. I've known at least five of my friends and acquaintances who have landed in the water with the gear down. One of them drowned as a result. There are also you-tube videos showing how fast the airplane flips on it's back.
I've also known some who have landed on the runway with the gear up. One who did it four times (that I know of). That usually, just grinds down the bottom of the floats. If they are fiberglass, it usually is a lot of glass.
This is critical and can not be emphasized enough!
THIS IS A LAND LANDING, GEAR DOWN
THIS IS A WATER LANDING, GEAR UP
Olibuilt
MEMBER
Montreal, Canada
Second flight today. Did only airport landings to re-learn small tires operation. Everything went great.
I'm not experience in airport pattern and radio calls.
Beautiful day here, half a dozen airplane in the pattern, many things to check.... I really felt I could have forget to bring the wheels down for landing...
I would love to fabricate a simple audio "Check Gear- Check Gear" warning that would be activated when flaps are down.
A magnetic position switch that would activate a voice in my headsets.
Intercom and flap handle are near each other, in the wing root.
Any help would be welcome.
I'm not experience in airport pattern and radio calls.
Beautiful day here, half a dozen airplane in the pattern, many things to check.... I really felt I could have forget to bring the wheels down for landing...
I would love to fabricate a simple audio "Check Gear- Check Gear" warning that would be activated when flaps are down.
A magnetic position switch that would activate a voice in my headsets.
Intercom and flap handle are near each other, in the wing root.
Any help would be welcome.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Oli, Those warnings sound good. BUT if you have them, you depend upon them. They become a crutch which can fail. There will be a different combination of circumstances which will throw the signal off. You have to pound the habit into your brain. Every time you fly whether you are in your red airplane or any other airplane. Whether the plane has retractable landing gear, fixed gear or floats. You must always follow the procedure I suggested above. Do not deviate from it. Not now, not ever. You have done a wonderful job up to now. You have added more items which need attention. Everyone has to learn flying starting with just a few items to learn, gradually working up to very complex flying machines. This is just one more arrow in your quiver. Develop the habit so that is just like pulling on your pants in the morning. Every time. Say it out loud. Repeat it. Say it like you mean it, Like you are afraid you'll forget. Place your finger on the gear switch and lights while you are saying it. Make certain they are where they are supposed to be. Actively look at the gear. Do not let anyone else distract you whether it is a passenger or someone on the radio. Double check yourself. This is serious business, your life depends upon it.
THIS IS A LAND LANDING, GEAR DOWN
THIS IS A WATER LANDING, GEAR UP
THIS IS A LAND LANDING, GEAR DOWN
THIS IS A WATER LANDING, GEAR UP
Listen to Skywagon. The passion you hear in his voice is born from considerable experience. I started flying amphibs in the 70’s and had someone beat this same mantra into me. Then, in 1988 or 89 I ended up getting checked out in a Twin Bee by Skywagon (he was actually a test pilot during their development). He again emphasized the importance of going through this verbal confirmation EVERY time. I passed it on to several highly experienced jet pilots that I trained, including one who thought his considerable experience in all things airborne made it unnecessary. Until one day during training on short final to terra firma with the wheels up, I said “say, this would be a really good time to put the wheels down”. We went around, and that was the last time I had to argue with him about this. That would have been embarrassing but not fatal. Wheels down in water can, and has been fatal many times.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
If you have GPS and a good terrain database it would be possible to develop a system that knows the aircraft is low over water with flaps down or low over land with flaps down. The system would then know if wheel should be up or down and could alert for an incorrect configuration.
I'm actually surprised no one has developed such a system and perhaps they have. Perhaps they were discouraged by the problem of making low approaches over land surrounding the intended water surface.
Accident history shows pilots are adept at ignoring loud and prominent audio alerting so not convinced that either the simple system you proposed , or the more complex one I suggested, would guarantee you will never land an amphip with the wrong gear configuration.
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Follow Pete’s advice, for sure. But I add one more thing: Every amphib I’ve ever flown had mirrors mounted out on the struts, or the bottom of the wing, located such that the pilot could visualize theACTUAL position of the gear. THAT is something you also MUST do prior to every landing……right after you repeat Pete’s mantra.
Why? Because this forces you to turn your head, focus on that little mirror, and concentrate to verify the actual position of the gear…all four of them.
One of the reasons that pilots fail in the use of gear warning systems (and, the pilots, not the systems fail) is that the lights, bells, whistles, etc all become rote, as can the spoken mantra. It’s always a busy time in the cockpit, so it’s easy to say the words automatically, to put your hand on the gear lever, but not THINK about its actual position, etc, etc.
BUT, combining that “speech” with then having to turn your head, find the mirror, then visualize and VERIFY the actual position of the gear, all four, requires specific action…..you have to look, focus and THINK.
I see what looks like mirrors on your struts……USE them. If those aren’t mirrors, mount some…..and use them.
I was checked out in a Beaver by Jack Corey. That Beaver had no gear indicator, and the gear position selector could be in any position, but that was meaningless, because you then had to manually pump the gear to the selected position.
But that airplane had mirrors, so, prior to every landing, I’d recite the mantra, then look out the window and either verify there were NO gears in view, or all four. I’d actually count them.
When we were done with that checkout, Jack commented: You seem pretty paranoid about the position of that landing gear during landings. I agreed that I was. Jack’s reply: “Don’t ever lose that paranoia.”
Good advice.
MTV
Why? Because this forces you to turn your head, focus on that little mirror, and concentrate to verify the actual position of the gear…all four of them.
One of the reasons that pilots fail in the use of gear warning systems (and, the pilots, not the systems fail) is that the lights, bells, whistles, etc all become rote, as can the spoken mantra. It’s always a busy time in the cockpit, so it’s easy to say the words automatically, to put your hand on the gear lever, but not THINK about its actual position, etc, etc.
BUT, combining that “speech” with then having to turn your head, find the mirror, then visualize and VERIFY the actual position of the gear, all four, requires specific action…..you have to look, focus and THINK.
I see what looks like mirrors on your struts……USE them. If those aren’t mirrors, mount some…..and use them.
I was checked out in a Beaver by Jack Corey. That Beaver had no gear indicator, and the gear position selector could be in any position, but that was meaningless, because you then had to manually pump the gear to the selected position.
But that airplane had mirrors, so, prior to every landing, I’d recite the mantra, then look out the window and either verify there were NO gears in view, or all four. I’d actually count them.
When we were done with that checkout, Jack commented: You seem pretty paranoid about the position of that landing gear during landings. I agreed that I was. Jack’s reply: “Don’t ever lose that paranoia.”
Good advice.
MTV
RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
I combine what Pete and mtv say. This is a land landing the gear is down. I only have a hand pump, I touch the selector, for land, give the handle a pump, and look out. One two three four look at them. Same for water, every time, even if you took off and come back in to land in the water.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
My two icons stickers by gear lever would be a truck for land operations and a boat for water
Glenn
Glenn
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I respect your abilities with electronics and attention to details. Lets not make things more complicated for Oli than necessary. How would your proposed system work if the pilot decided to land with the flaps up? See, there is always something else to consider. Best to keep it as simple as possible.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I have no Idea what procedures this pilot was following nor what he was thinking. But I do know what he did not do. He did not follow the procedure which I outlined above. And he most certainly did not announce out loud
THIS IS A WATER LANDING. THE GEAR IS UP
Fortunately he is there sitting on the bottom of his floats.
Notice how quickly it came to a stop in a very short distance.
THIS IS A WATER LANDING. THE GEAR IS UP
Fortunately he is there sitting on the bottom of his floats.
Notice how quickly it came to a stop in a very short distance.
Wyoming
Was that the one that the little block object flying out through the window was a camera? Maybe he had time to take a breathe before the cabin filled with water.
Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Olibuilt
MEMBER
Montreal, Canada
I was thinking a simple "Check Gear" audio reminder would not hurt?
From now on I will do the routine stated above. Thanks
Floats are equipped with gear indicators on the floats. I also have gear light in the dash.
I've placed big mirrors to see the mains and smaller one to see the front wheels:
From now on I will do the routine stated above. Thanks
Floats are equipped with gear indicators on the floats. I also have gear light in the dash.
I've placed big mirrors to see the mains and smaller one to see the front wheels:
Attachments
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Pete,
Unfortunately, we’ll never know precisely what happened there. The two “older” gents in that plane left town right after, and weren’t talking. This happened on a beautiful late evening in the midnight sun. It is known that they’d had a very long flying day that day, so fatigue was certainly a possibility. The thing that came through the windshield was indeed a video camera. That illustrates just how severe the deceleration is in one of these deals.
But the fact that the passenger was video taping the landing also suggests distraction for the pilot. Distraction was a significant factor in several of these cases that I’m familiar with.
Which brings up another procedure that can help prevent this: Maintaining a sterile cockpit within some distance of a landing site. I’ve used that procedure for years, and it’s part of my pre-takeoff passenger safety briefing. The advent of the “pilot isolate” function on modern intercoms helps with this, but I don’t want anyone distracting me when I’m evaluating a landing site, and certainly not while on final. I’d bet these guys were having a conversation as they approached to land.
And, BTW, the airplane was equipped with a gear warning system, though I’m not sure specifics. The fact that you can push a button to silence many of these…..
The camera was recovered by a diver, but apparently shed no light on the accident.
MTV
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
One look and we can identify the make of the floats. With that it is safe to assume also the make of the warning system which is airspeed activated and is adjustable for the chosen speed. Also the audio and visual warning is silenced by pushing a button. I've flown in an airplane equipped with this system which was set at a slightly high speed. It kept going off and being reset, very distractive in my view. Actually was as distractive as a passenger violating the quiet cockpit rule while landing.
