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O-360 AUTO GAS..NO???

F

fishcruiser

Registered User
Anchorage
I have been looking for a 180 HP cub but questioned whether I could burn auto gas on occasion. I corresponded with two Lycoming Reps and both said that all O-360 being produced should be run on Av Gas ONLY. They basically gave me the impression that ANY use of auto gas in an O-360 180HP engine was very hard on the engine due to the higher octane requirements for O-360 jugs and there was zero lead in auto gas for proper valve operation. My mechanic pretty much says avoid any O-360 180 HP where the owner admits to burning auto gas...

However I read on this website about people inquiring about auto gas STCs the for O-360 and burning auto gas in new O-360s with little concern??
 
I know alot of people say not to run auto-gas in the 0-360 including the origanal manufacturer. But the new Superior Airparts 0-360 allows the use of 91 octane auto-gas.


Scott.
 
Fishcruiser........

Fishcruiser,
Several 0-360 Lycomings can legally run auto fuel, but ONLY 91 octane auto fuel. Check the peterson web site. However, for one to legally run auto fuel, both the airframe and engine need to be tested. That is why its better to have the STC, than to just use the auto gas, and take the chance that your aircraft systems will allow its safe use. I had a Cessna 170B that ran 2400 hours without a major, all of it on auto fuel. I never had a fouled plug, never. When I pulled the engine for a major, all it really needed was a camshaft, oh sure, I replaced the cylinders, but none were in bad shape.
Lycoming and Continental officially say bad things about auto fuel, strickly for their liability in case something happens. However, auto fuel is fine in the STD'd engines and airframes, no matter what they say.

Mike in NC
 
Consider economics and practicality. Even if you pay the price of a complete overhaul in repairs as a direct consequence of using mogas for 2000hrs, you just about break even. In round numbers:

Avgas: 2000hrs x 8 gph x $4/gal = $64,000 (!)
Mogas: 2000hrs x 8 gph x $2/gal = $32,000

The numbers might change as gas prices and engine work costs fluctuate. But the basic principle won't. If your unscheduled maintenance costs specific to the use of mogas are less (possibly none) than the price difference between avgas and mogas, you win. If more, then you lose economically, but still have the convenience of filing up at the local gas station or farm (bring your own test kit). Also, you might have to put hours on your airplane just to fly to (or via) an airport that sells avgas.

My 2C worth

Nick
 
Nick, the desparity between avgas and mogas is not so much here. Only about 50 cents a gallon.

sj
 
Gas

An O-320 160 hp has the same compression ratio as an O-360-A4P or C4P. As a matter of fact the Lycoming part number for pistons is the same between the O-320-B2B and the O-360-A or C4P (the bore is the same), so what is the big deal??? The 5/8"longer stroke of the piston moving up and down the cylinder of an O-360 should make very little difference in what fuel you use. An O-360 is just as tough as an O-320 if not even tougher.

I ran car gas on and off in my old O-320-160 over the years. The only thing I noticed was the engine would kick over and not quit after pulling the mixture all the way out. To kill it you had to idle it up to 1000 to 1200 rpm and then pull the mixture or it would kick over forever, even with the mags turned off.

I topped both the 24 gallon tanks in my 180 hp Cub last week (almost ran out of fuel, thats another story) in a village and burned most of it flying back. I could tell no difference in the way it ran or shut down. Take care. Crash
 
Crash,

Hmmm, pistons are the only parts in engines? Hmmmm. Ever hear of valves?

MTV
 
Mike

mvivion said:
Crash,

Hmmm, pistons are the only parts in engines? Hmmmm. Ever hear of valves?

MTV
Click to expand...

Mike: As usual you missed my point. If it is OK to run auto gas in an O-320-B2B, then why isn't it OK to run it in basically the same engine with a 5/8" longer stroke??? Crash
 
The last time I checked, Petersen's had the STC for the O320-B2B, but it required 91 octane auto fuel. Anybody know where I can get 91 octane without alcohol (in Anchorage)? Anybody use 87 or 90 and add octane boosters? I don't have the STC but it does look attractive. Difference in cost currently looks to be around 75 cents between high test auto fuel and 100LL
 
And, that's the rub with auto fuel stc's: You can't legally run them with fuel with alcohol in it. To the best of my knowledge, all the premium autogas at least in Alaska, has alcohol in it.

So, you can buy the stc, but you can't comply with it? But what the hey, run the stuff anyway. So, why buy the stc?

Everyone who proposes to use autogas (and I've done so) in an airplane engine should simply read the provisions and requirements of the Peterson and or EAA stc's. See if you actually can comply with them.

Then decide whether it's worth it or not.

The best deal going is to buy avgas in bulk, if you can. That lightens the load a bit cost wise.

I'm not against using auto fuel in an aircraft engine, Crash, I'm just against people doing something without understanding what they're doing.

MTV
 
Quite a bit of the 91 and higher octane Mogas here in MN is alcohol free. The Snow Machine/RV/ATV/Outboard/Lawn Mower etc etc... crowds demand the pure stuff - so just look for it at a pump near you.

It's also available at the BRD fuel island if you don't want to run into town.
 
Gas

When Texaco was still Texaco (got to love those !@#$% brits) they were the only ones to switch back to "summer formulas" in April and do away with alcohol in their fuels until November (in Alaska). I don't know if Shell (bought out Texaco) still does the same. Texaco supream (93 octane)was good gas, never had a problem with it. Crash
 
Auto Gas

I have a 1957 PA-22 150 with a 0320. 1985 hrs TTSN. Perfect compression and runs strong. Never overhauled. Never used Avgas. 47 years of car gas makes me a believer!
 
Re: Gas

Crash said:
When Texaco was still Texaco (got to love those !@#$% brits) they were the only ones to switch back to "summer formulas" in April and do away with alcohol in their fuels until November (in Alaska). I don't know if Shell (bought out Texaco) still does the same. Texaco supream (93 octane)was good gas, never had a problem with it. Crash
Click to expand...

Where did you get the idea that the Brits have anything to do with Texaco? Or Shell either, for that matter. Texaco merged with Chevron in 2000/2001. No Brits involved. Shell is actually Royal Dutch Shell, so there's no Brits involved there either.

You may be thinking of Amoco, which was absorbed by BP (aka British Petroleum, although you don't see much mention of that at the BP stations or in their ads). Definitely some Brits involved in that one.

Here are some links to Texaco and Chevron history:

http://www.texaco.com/texaco/abouttexaco/history.htm

http://www.chevron.com/learning_center/history/

http://www.chevrontexaco.com/history/

All of this has nothing to do with whether or not auto gas is approved in an O-360 or not. On that subject, Petersen Aviation holds auto fuel STCs for several versions of the O-360. Most, but not all, require the use of 91 AKI (anti-knock index, which is not to be confused with the octane ratings from which it is derived) auto fuel. Check Petersen's web site for lots of info on this issue - http://www.autofuelstc.com/

The issue with alcohol really doesn't have anything to do with the performance of the engine itself, but it has everything to do with the performance of the fuel system. Many of the hoses and other soft parts in our Cub fuel systems will not tolerate alcohol, and will fail in various ways. You definitely do not want to run fuel containing alcohol in your Cub.

Octane boosters are not allowed by any auto fuel STC, so it's not recommended that these be used either. As they have not been tested in any way, you take the risk of having fuel system problems if the booster contains anything that isn't compatible with the fuel system components in your Cub.

Fly safely folks!

Joe Norris
 
As Crash notes, different parts of the country have different blends of fuel. There is no doubt that there are parts of the country where Petersen's and EAA's stc parameters can be met by the fuels available.

In Alaska, we tend to get whatever is left over for fuel (or so it seems). I used half auto fuel for a long time in an O-320, and it worked fine. That said, I also never tore down the engine to see what it looked like inside, either.

As to an O-360, I'd get at least a little lead into those valves and valve guides, even with the Peterson stc. It's designed to have some lead run through it. I'd consider mixing fuel, maybe.

Again, if the fuel in your part of the country meets the standards, go for it. Note also that there are seasonal blends of fuels, though. So the fuel you get in the winter may not meet the standards that the summer fuel does. That's why the stc's require you to test your fuel.

MTV
 
For what it is worth....I use auto gas exsclusive and fly all over the lower 48 with out any problems. However when I got to Alaska this summer and used auto gas I noticed that my engine wouldn't shut down when the mixture was pulled out. Had to increase rpm with the throttle while holding the mixture at cut of. My conclusion is that the auto gas in Alaska is different than what I have been using in Montana
 
Auto Gas

Also bush auto gas is different then Anchorage auto gas. It is funny that all of our Texaco Stations turned into Shell stations after the merger here in Alaska. You are right it is Dutch Shell and not the British Petroleum but I bunch them into all the same group, they're "over there" owning a major portion of our (USA's) energy companies. I don't like it! Crash
 
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