New wiring... What sizes?

[Steve Pierce]

I am just used to going by the regs. to size the breaker to the wire size not the load. If the load throws the breaker will it have already fried the device? I have to do this quite a bit and am tied to using what is called out in the 43.13 and kinda resistant to alternative ways. :lol:

Logan, If you want to go to n alternator now I know the part numbers and source for the internally regulated Nipo unit that Niagra Air Parts used to sell. I have had it field approved on my Pacer and a few other Cub types with no problems. About $100 and a little modification to the generator bracket.

 

[Gordon Misch]

Steve, that's $100 for the alternator, ready to install? I'm definitely interested. How does the weight and amperage compare to other options?

 

[NimpoCub]

I am just used to going by the regs.

I understand that Steve. You're a pro. I'm just a practical guy who sees laws/regs as a guideline.

About $100 and a little modification to the generator bracket.

$100 for an internally regulated alt?? That can't be right... if it is, I'll take a gross of 'em & let Ebay pay for my airplane habit!!

 

[irishfield]

It's just an off the shelf alternator used on various Toyota and Honda cars Logan and probably one of the reasons Newburg (Niagara airparts) doesn't sell them anymore as sales dropped when everyone caught on to that. I sent the last one that I had here off to a friend awhile ago...and of course forgot to write the part number down in case I needed another one. Sounds like Steve has it to share with you for install on your OM cub.

 

[Steve Pierce]

Denso alternator part number 100211-1680. I will have to look up where I got it. You can google Denso and get the main distributer in CA website and they list local distributers. It is a 2 wire hook up, internally regulated with over voltage protection. Been used in a lot of short wings for 10 years or so.

 

[Crash]

Nimpo,

Vickie, would you say that AWG 4 was the correct size for starter cable,for modern starter/under seat battery location?
Vidir

Nempo Cub,

I would go with #2 for your starter power. Some guys up here tried #4 with mixed results in cold weather.

I also go from the positive post of the battery direct to the starter solenoid then a #8 from there to the master solenoid for the power buss (Cessna style).

When you hit the starter button, only the starter solenoid takes the hit. If the starter solenoid quits you can always jump across the posts with your Leatherman to start it.

Re-building your own Cub is a very rewarding experience so don't let the nay-sayers get you down. We all started somewhere.

Take care.

Crash

 

[S2D]

The number one reason not to buy a used airplane -- rebuilt by someone who doesn't have the first clue what he is doing or how to do it.

I know everyone thinks STMAWR14 is a real A hole, but he has some valid points. Don't know Nimpo's experience, so won't even go there.

We just got a "new" airplane on the field that was obviously "owner" maintained for quite a few years.
something about the carb just wasn't quite right.
So we took it off to have a look see.

1. Accelerator pump leather had disintegrated, so the owner put two O rings in to make work. the outer one came off and fell in the bottom.

2 Must have sat a long time with car gas cause the check valve screen had disintegrated and the sump area for the Accelerator pump was full of hard goo.

3. atomizer nozzle was coated with the funniest looking green moss I've seen. wonder it ever worked at all.

4. Owner must have cleaned all the goo out of the bowl, cause it looked very clean. but then he had to replace that main gasket when he put it back together, so he made his own and to make sure it sealed good, he gave the whole thing a good coating of silicone and stuck it together.

Quit on us on Takeoff while giving the owner dual. Luckily it was the start of the roll and not later.

One reason I only annual my own aircraft any more. Tired of covering somebody else's butt.

 

[Gordon Misch]

S2D, your point is valid - BUT It would be reasonable to guess that the fellow who 'repaired' that carb did not take the risk of looking ignorant by asking questions. Seems to me that by asking people who should really know the right answers, one can avoid being ignorant? About 40 years ago I tried sealing gasoline with silicone - without asking anybody - what a horrid gooey mess!

My contention is that there's a big difference between asking or blindly plunging ahead; my vote is that asking is never wrong - - Even then, one can respond politely, as you did, or otherwise.

I'd hate to think that people would be shy of asking honest questions on this website, for fear of some know-it-all trying to put them down.

 

[jcrowles]

New wiring .... What sizes ?

12Geezer : The last statement in your post --- Amen !! Amen !!

 

[tamarack]

Crash,

Thanks for the information on the starter cable wiring. Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand the routing. Take, for example, the typical underseat battery mod wiring... I ran the A+ through the master with a 2 gauge, then 2 gauge up to the starter solenoid on the firewall, the bus wiring was tee'd off of the A+ side of the starter solenoid. I thought this was typical of Cessnas.

I guess I don't understand where the location of your battery and solenoids are.

A previous thread discussed bypassing the master solenoid to relieve it of the starter current and prevent premature failure (wiring it similar to your description.) However, someone pointed out that the master solenoid could be deactivated in the case of a stuck starter solenoid.

I would like to figure out what you are describing...I sure see lots of Cubs wired in different ways.

Thank you,

Vickie

 

[moneyburner]

Re-building your own Cub is a very rewarding experience so don't let the nay-sayers get you down. We all started somewhere.

Take care.

Crash

My sentiments exactly! Well said.

 

[moneyburner]

S2D, your point is valid - BUT It would be reasonable to guess that the fellow who 'repaired' that carb did not take the risk of looking ignorant by asking questions. Seems to me that by asking people who should really know the right answers, one can avoid being ignorant? About 40 years ago I tried sealing gasoline with silicone - without asking anybody - what a horrid gooey mess!

My contention is that there's a big difference between asking or blindly plunging ahead; my vote is that asking is never wrong - - Even then, one can respond politely, as you did, or otherwise.

I'd hate to think that people would be shy of asking honest questions on this website, for fear of some know-it-all trying to put them down.

Geezer, you are my new hero.



You SO get it! Or, as the son of an English professor might say, you articulate your point in an elegant and considered manner! Here here!

 

[NimpoCub]

Holy voltmeter, Batman!!

Thanks y'all for not only the great advice/opinions, but all the fascinating BS as well!!

I checked with a local guru & was advised that the Nippon Denso alternator should last 'bout a couple thousand hours, mainly due to the low demand put on it in a Cub. For a hundred $ I think I'll go with that option on my soon-to-be OM plane.

Sorry to Irishfield & others who feel I am "wrong" to drop the certification, but that's my final answer & I'm locking it in.

Once again, I'm amazed at the pool of knowledge here, & grateful for the sharing.

Ya know who cuts the grass on Walton's mtn.?
Lawn Boy

 

[mike mcs repair]

.........side of the starter solenoid. I thought this was typical of Cessnas.......

the way he describes is also the way a cub with the two fuses were originally wired, we are just removing the fuses and adding the master sol, was usually needed to be done when you replaced a small generator with a 60 amp alt,( only 30 AMP fuses)

so the whole stuck starter sol thing is kinda moot point, being any one that came with/has fuses were hot on the start sol all the time.... since 19XX ......


so another side question I have been pondering, started looking it up the reg books the other day, but never finished... can or has anyone used the very small mini blade style fuses like your car has? any new manufactures using them.... (compact, light, easy visual check) didn't really come across any thing in the little search I did that would disqualify it, but never finished looking.....

 

[Snert]

Were were not all born with an ATP and IA in our pocket. Nimpo, keep plugging away and asking the right questions. Don't compromise the quality of your work and you will have a nice airplane.

 

[irishfield]

Holy voltmeter, Batman!!



Sorry to Irishfield & others who feel I am "wrong" to drop the certification, but that's my final answer & I'm locking it in.

Nothing to be sorry for Logan.... I just wanted to make sure you were fully versed in the negatives before you go in head over heels. There is for all intensive purposes no turning back... and like I said no repositionable gear allowed anymore.

 

[NimpoCub]

Were were not all born with an ATP and IA in our pocket.

Naturally, that was a big part of my decision. I'd sure NOT do it if I was on my own.

Don't compromise the quality of your work and you will have a nice airplane.

Everything that I do will be done with quality, and well documented. Safety/reliability is naturally on top of the list, "legality" somewhere else. ALL parts on the list are cert, except now for that alternator thingie, which isn't something I'll depend on to get back home so I'm OK w/that. Things like my carburetor will never see MY screwdriver!!

I just wanted to make sure you were fully versed in the negatives

Yup, I've been versed. Thanks.
If my "mission" were different, my decision may be different.

Here's another can of worms I've been wondering about...
In my new panel, I'm naturally keeping the compass hole away from any electrical paths and I wondered if the tach. (magnets spinning?) will affect the compass. How far from that (do you think) would be "safe"? How 'bout my radios??

 

[Crash]

Crash,


A previous thread discussed bypassing the master solenoid to relieve it of the starter current and prevent premature failure (wiring it similar to your description.) However, someone pointed out that the master solenoid could be deactivated in the case of a stuck starter solenoid.

Thank you,

Vickie

Hi Vickie

That is the risk. I've run my Cub like this for over 12 years with no problem. Wired the other way, I cooked a master solenoid out in the middle of no where. The Cessna / early Cub schematic takes the master out of the loop when you hit the system with the huge draw of the starter.

Also in cold weather, this is a much more reliable design in my experience and opinion. In the end, both ways work, this is just simpler.

If he has low enough load calcs, he can drop the master all together and go with just a push-pull breaker and save 1.5 lbs and make it even simpler.

Take care.

Crash

 

[tamarack]

Thank you, Crash, for the clarification.

This past year seems to have been a banner year for stuck starter solenoids... I notice that the Cessna solenoids now have insulated feet and the price doubled, does that mean they are better?

Vickie

 

[Steve Pierce]

For some reason all the master relays I have ever had to change were on Cessna 150s and 172s. They are in series with the starter relay. That is why I wired the Stearman like Crash did his airplane. Didn't want the starter current going through the master relay. I do see where you could get a stuck starter relay and it would not give you a way to shut it off but like someone pointed out Piper's came that way. Most Short Wing Pipers have a big brass button under the seat that is a direct connection between battery and starter. Sometimes a simple thing can be way over complicated.

 

[NimpoCub]

Steve,
I can't seem to find the "Denso alternator part number 100211-1680" that you posted. Can you check that P-# when you get a minute?
Thanks!!

 

[irishfield]

That is the correct number Logan and here's a picture of one

As you can maybe read... this is the other number on it.

18504-6220

and maybe what you need to source.

Appears it's also used on small Kubota tractors

"100211-1680 Universal Kubota Alternator 12V-40 Amp $95 "

A-8818 is a cross reference number for it at Dixie Electric.. may be the same elsewhere.

Wayne

 

[T.J.]

Icecub:
I checked Piper Service Letter 828. It references a new Part Number Overvoltage relay and a new Part Number Master or Starter relay. I forget which!

 

[Gordon Misch]

Steve, I haven't been able to find a source for that 100211-1680 alternator. Suggestions?

 

[Steve Pierce]

Let me look up where I got them and some previously approved 337s. It' been a Luscombe world lately as it should fly tomorrow after 5 years in the shop.

 

[kase]

When I rebuilt my cub I used 18 for the small wires ie nav lights, field wire, flasher on the tail. 10 for the landing lights. 8 for the alt, 4 for the starter.

 

[Skip]

When I restored an Austin Healey 3000 for my wife I used the same Denso alternator to replace the old generator. It`s smaller lighter and darn near bullet proof. I`ll put one in my 12 in a heartbeat.

 

[NimpoCub]

Nope, dammit, I can't find one anywhere. I googled, ebay'd, searched Denso sites, various others, with all those #'s & can't find a match.

SteveP, please send me some of what you smoke.

Geezer, did you have any luck finding one?

Frustrated, goin' snowmobilin' again.

 

[Gordon Misch]

Nope, I struck out too. Maybe a kubota dealer?

 

[cubscout]

You guys picqued my interest so I checked the Nippondenso alternator on my '96 Toyota Camry. Unfortunately no p.n. visible, only production date.

This so-called "piece-o-junk" was installed in Japan in 1996, ~300,000 miles ago. Now try THAT with a Prestolite, Chrysler, or Autolite, touch wood..... And now some of those cheap crummy Japanese lightbulbs are starting to fail....

I seem to recall an ad in EAA magazine for a Nippondenso, with a vee-belt pulley (larger than stock?) for the XP applications, but no back issues handy.

Anyone else?

Thanks. cubscout