New Model by Zlin Aviation: SHOCK CUB

[SpainCub]

Now, wait one second, the Savage is a great little plane, there is nothing that would suggest that the Rotax version have any issues in their flight characteristic in their performance envelop.

Infact Mr. Selvanegra, I have helped Arturo to get to some customers in both Madrid and in the South of Spain including the gentlemen who bough the 180hp one, pointing them to the Savage as a great platform for a Cub-Like little airplane. Now the question is, why bring him into the discussion? I was talking about real life experience in the Sage with the 180hp engine. If you look at from a different angle, there is more that unites us than the point in time differences we might have about the Save. I few would only talk about the Save, that would be a different story, but we are in a SuperCub site.

Please note that the 180hp airplane in my personal experience, does in fact produce a left wing down on transitioning from slow flight to a suden burst of energy, like you would need in a short landing. I will do my diligence and try to get a flight into the one with the 180hp one and capture it on video. IMHP Wings are too short and P factor and energy from the vortices of the wing tip create this effect. Tail needs to be a little longer IMHO to get better control of the power, it feels over powering and jerky, non of that is experienced on the FENOMENAL flying one with the Rotax. Like I said, more that unites us, and it would be interesting to meet if you are interested, I'm in Milan quite often.

On a second note, some people forget this is a SUPER CUB enthusiast community, it's almost like religion, talk about your own book and you will be, well, told otherwise. I hope everyone finds the humour on that note and Happy Easter Y'all!

IMO, Is the Rans a better Cub? NOPE... (Sorry Currier) is the Savage a Better Cub, NOPE. Are either of those airplane built to go a thrash them in the Bush? IMO, Not really.... even at their lightest, they are highly susceptible to failure, something that in the bush would be a death trap... (Have already talked bout the issues I have encountered and the resolve I have on the tube spars on the LE for both these types.)


Results from an almost ground loop and bad luck (or pilot error).

Are they bad airplane, hell no! They are as much fun as any cub type... and priced right!

 

[courierguy]

I'm not sure what that picture is of you posted Spain Cub, is it to show how a Savage "isn't as good in the bush", as a Cub? And, by inference, that a Rans also is likely to let you down? I'm not EVEN going to "go there", and am not wanting to start some kind of "good as a Cub discussion", but speaking for myself, I have 1 1/2" axles on my Roberts gear, and based on my gross weight it is VERY strong. But it's good to know that no Cub has ever suffered a gear failure from a ground loop!

Heck, I'll fess up to a gear related screw up just yesterday, less then 24 hours ago, wasn't going to mention it.... but now seems the time! Like many aviation incidents, it started with a minor detail, that snowballed. My windsock had split last week, and as a result even a light breeze would make it stream as if it was a very strong wind. Coming back from a breakfast flight on what was to be my last ski flight of the year, I got distracted between eyeballing the seemingly very strong cross wind the sock was telling me was happening (and then remembering the sock was split, so to disregard what it was telling me somewhat) and my wind electric turbine at the top of my 400' x 18' wide long sloped strip at 5640' ASL. Eyeballing the wind turbine's blade rotation speed gives me more wind info, and it's my habit to look at the sock at the bottom of my property, AND the turbine at 197' higher up (147' of terrain rise plus 50' of tower height) and extrapolate what they are both telling me. I often see conflicting info if the thermals are popping, or with a strong wind gradient.

Anyway, I blame the windsock snafu with me getting slightly out of my usual pre landing routine, and just as I was almost touching down, with another season of mountain ski flying in the bag (and reaching around to pat myself on the back for not screwing up all winter too bad) I realized something was wrong. On touchdown the plane veered a bit to the right, and decelerated fairly rapidly. Looking down, I THEN noticed 1 ski was "down", and the other was "up" (Datum retractables). Yeah, I had neglected to visually confirm both wheels were properly deployed, my bad. My panel switches have 3 positions, up for skis, center is neutral, or nothing, and down is wheels. While banked up and turning onto final I had hit the switches and just due to sloppy cockpit work (but while I was flying really snappy, looking good) failed to operate the damn toggle switches correctly, no fault of the skis! Bottom line: no damage to skis or gear, just a dumb ass snafu. It's damn tough gear on MY plane, savvy Rans pilots, just like savvy Cub pilots, have learned the mods that work and have them on their planes, Roberts gear being one of the best, and yes, when you consider the much lower gross weight I fly at, it is probably tougher then Cub, for sure as tough.

Now I'm going to photobomb you with a pic taken yesterday at 8600' a few miles out from my breakfast destination. This thread is veering wildly out of control, much more so then my landing yesterday! Back to the new Shock Cub discussion.

 

[Selvaoscura]

Now, wait one second, the Savage is a great little plane, there is nothing that would suggest that the Rotax version have any issues in their flight characteristic in their performance envelop.

Infact Mr. Selvanegra, I have helped Arturo to get to some customers in both Madrid and in the South of Spain including the gentlemen who bough the 180hp one, pointing them to the Savage as a great platform for a Cub-Like little airplane. Now the question is, why bring him into the discussion? I was talking about real life experience in the Sage with the 180hp engine. If you look at from a different angle, there is more that unites us than the point in time differences we might have about the Save. I few would only talk about the Save, that would be a different story, but we are in a SuperCub site.

Please note that the 180hp airplane in my personal experience, does in fact produce a left wing down on transitioning from slow flight to a suden burst of energy, like you would need in a short landing. I will do my diligence and try to get a flight into the one with the 180hp one and capture it on video. IMHP Wings are too short and P factor and energy from the vortices of the wing tip create this effect. Tail needs to be a little longer IMHO to get better control of the power, it feels over powering and jerky, non of that is experienced on the FENOMENAL flying one with the Rotax. Like I said, more that unites us, and it would be interesting to meet if you are interested, I'm in Milan quite often.

On a second note, some people forget this is a SUPER CUB enthusiast community, it's almost like religion, talk about your own book and you will be, well, told otherwise. I hope everyone finds the humour on that note and Happy Easter Y'all!

IMO, Is the Rans a better Cub? NOPE... (Sorry Currier) is the Savage a Better Cub, NOPE. Are either of those airplane built to go a thrash them in the Bush? IMO, Not really.... even at their lightest, they are highly susceptible to failure, something that in the bush would be a death trap... (Have already talked bout the issues I have encountered and the resolve I have on the tube spars on the LE for both these types.)
View attachment 30978

Results from an almost ground loop and bad luck (or pilot error).

Are they bad airplane, hell no! They are as much fun as any cub type... and priced right!

Dear Mr.Cachorro, I mentioned him and invited you to ask to him, because you know him very well (according to your webpage), because you seem Spanish too and because in my experience there are not any ultralight Savage 180 hp planes in Europe since not allowed by the laws (most have just 100 hp or a little more according to laws here).The one you mention in Spain has to be an experimental right? so since I speak only about what I know, I told you that in my experience and according to the Savage community I frequent regularly, there are not left nor right drop wings .I mentioned him even because we all know him too in our community and we respect him as a bush pilot (he is even a talented Piper SC bush pilot and is a very very expert Savage owner too, offering specific training for bush pilots in Europe). I hope this clarifies your big doubts.
Now is this plane better than a Super Cub? of course not… Who can state the opposite?sure not myself. I never told anything similar in this Forum. I posted in about 9 years only 13 times so you can't sure accuse me to write bad about SC. My nickname has an SC picture included for example, did you notice it?
But the new Shock Cub (I know this is a SC Forum but in this thread we speak legally about Shock Cub right??) that I will hopefully get on early 2018 since I am selling my standard Savage, in my personal opinion, has a big potential in the "amateur" normal bushflying. Ok this will not apply probably for the real Alaskan bush for several reasons including the engine choice (company even doesn't offer the 180 hp in their configuration system) but is lighter , much much lighter than the lighest SC around , slower than the majority of the standard SC even when Keller flaps are installed and at least as slow as the Back Country modified experimental Cubs (that need almost 20 square/meter wing surface to fly so slow because they are let me say quite heavy having studied them when I was interested to buy one), with huge potential with that landing gear system (as it happens to be correct for the Super Stol that btw is faster during landing). These combined factors (lightness and big capacity to shock absorb the loads and very slow speed during approach) with the new 135/140 hp coming soon by Rotax (full power up to >22.000 ft I remember you), could offer a package that will produce sure wet dreams in so many pilots around the world. To own in fact a real Super Cub in Europe today is quite an economical suicide and even if I love it a lot, I personally don't need to own one and even it would be out of contest for me and most of potential pilots in this part of the world. Thus the arrival of a new interesting design can only be appreciated by real pilots, real enthusiasts and in real terms…And I am between them, sorry for that. It is (again) not better than a well proven SC of course and only after a long use in the real bush we could say if it is good or not for that job, but the potential of the machine is something indisputable….even if it will never be common in Alaska where the SC and "so many other American copies and derivates of it" will be the kings for the next centuries.. The light Rans S/7 and Savage planes togheter with the SuperStol are so,in my opinion, an huge opportunity for many pilots and amateur bush flying lovers.Much cheaper to run, slower during approach (in the case of the Shock ) , helping pilots to absorb huge amount of loads during landing and allowing even some mistakes to pilots that are not taildragger PRO, as me for example. So for all these reasons I find not necessary to post subtly any pic of any ground loop of a Savage plane because if you google Piper Super Cub ground loop you could find so many threads about. I respect you for the credibility, the huge passion and the knowledge you express in your posts when you speak for example about aerodynamic, but first my nickname is Selvaoscura and not "Selvanegra" as you sarcastically write, second if you want to meet me, pls change your destination because I am quite far from Milan…and even if I will come with a Savage to pick up you arriving after flying over magic Alps, it will take too much time sorry, because these planes are not too fast…
Last…most people under evaluate too much this company and of course in this Forum it is normal.And why should be different? but let me say they deserve still some respect because what they try is to offer a better focused product for us, normal pilots, who search amateur bush planes characteristics in their planes, with an incredibly good value for money compared to some competitors ..so is not necessary to blame them too much even if they probably copied initially Rans (20 years ago?) as it seems evident even to me and to Courierguy:lol:...

 

[SpainCub]

Dear Mr.Cachorro, I mentioned him and invited you to ask to him, because you know him very well (according to your webpage), because you seem Spanish too and because in my experience there are not any ultralight Savage 180 hp planes in Europe since not allowed by the laws (most have just 100 hp or a little more according to laws here).The one you mention in Spain has to be an experimental right? so since I speak only about what I know, I told you that in my experience and according to the Savage community I frequent regularly, there are not left nor right drop wings .I mentioned him even because we all know him too in our community and we respect him as a bush pilot (he is even a talented Piper SC bush pilot and is a very very expert Savage owner too, offering specific training for bush pilots in Europe). I hope this clarifies your big doubts.
Now is this plane better than a Super Cub? of course not… Who can state the opposite?sure not myself. I never told anything similar in this Forum. I posted in about 9 years only 13 times so you can't sure accuse me to write bad about SC. My nickname has an SC picture included for example, did you notice it?
But the new Shock Cub (I know this is a SC Forum but in this thread we speak legally about Shock Cub right??) that I will hopefully get on early 2018 since I am selling my standard Savage, in my personal opinion, has a big potential in the "amateur" normal bushflying. Ok this will not apply probably for the real Alaskan bush for several reasons including the engine choice (company even doesn't offer the 180 hp in their configuration system) but is lighter , much much lighter than the lighest SC around , slower than the majority of the standard SC even when Keller flaps are installed and at least as slow as the Back Country modified experimental Cubs (that need almost 20 square/meter wing surface to fly so slow because they are let me say quite heavy having studied them when I was interested to buy one), with huge potential with that landing gear system (as it happens to be correct for the Super Stol that btw is faster during landing). These combined factors (lightness and big capacity to shock absorb the loads and very slow speed during approach) with the new 135/140 hp coming soon by Rotax (full power up to >22.000 ft I remember you), could offer a package that will produce sure wet dreams in so many pilots around the world. To own in fact a real Super Cub in Europe today is quite an economical suicide and even if I love it a lot, I personally don't need to own one and even it would be out of contest for me and most of potential pilots in this part of the world. Thus the arrival of a new interesting design can only be appreciated by real pilots, real enthusiasts and in real terms…And I am between them, sorry for that. It is (again) not better than a well proven SC of course and only after a long use in the real bush we could say if it is good or not for that job, but the potential of the machine is something indisputable….even if it will never be common in Alaska where the SC and "so many other American copies and derivates of it" will be the kings for the next centuries.. The light Rans S/7 and Savage planes togheter with the SuperStol are so,in my opinion, an huge opportunity for many pilots and amateur bush flying lovers.Much cheaper to run, slower during approach (in the case of the Shock ) , helping pilots to absorb huge amount of loads during landing and allowing even some mistakes to pilots that are not taildragger PRO, as me for example. So for all these reasons I find not necessary to post subtly any pic of any ground loop of a Savage plane because if you google Piper Super Cub ground loop you could find so many threads about. I respect you for the credibility, the huge passion and the knowledge you express in your posts when you speak for example about aerodynamic, but first my nickname is Selvaoscura and not "Selvanegra" as you sarcastically write, second if you want to meet me, pls change your destination because I am quite far from Milan…and even if I will come with a Savage to pick up you arriving after flying over magic Alps, it will take too much time sorry, because these planes are not too fast…
Last…most people under evaluate too much this company and of course in this Forum it is normal.And why should be different? but let me say they deserve still some respect because what they try is to offer a better focused product for us, normal pilots, who search amateur bush planes characteristics in their planes, with an incredibly good value for money compared to some competitors ..so is not necessary to blame them too much even if they probably copied initially Rans (20 years ago?) as it seems evident even to me and to Courierguy:lol:...

Dear Mr. Selvaoscura, Did not mean any disrespect, It was a mishaps with my autocorrect. And if you must know, I added Selvanegra to my custom dictionary for other reasons. So no intention there. You can call me Cachorro (puppy for those in english) any time, I'm kind of liking it and I always have been identified with the canine family from a nickname perspective. Thank you for helping me build a firm opinion on Savage.

Clearly, I posted a reference of the issues here to establish my own formed opinion. Sure, ground loops are an issue with any aircraft, but pls note that this failure IMO, seemed excessive for a mishap... that could have lead into a group loop. No ill intent there, let me reaffirm my great appreciation of the Savage airplane. Done 300h in one, so I guess I have a formed opinion there, and it's very positive.

Again, I hope that we can find those things that unite us, rather than point in time comments where we might differ. My offer stands, I'm in Milan quite often, I can take a day to drive out and greet you when I'm in the Verona region, I think it was near Bolzano when I saw the Bobber flying, which is my favourite Savage.

But, I still stand by my post, all those Savages near me have had plenty of issues by been "man handled" (and poor judgement at times), which IMO make it for a less than favourable platform for the bush. Whan't to fly a "J3" type and take it around the patch, pls look at the Savage. Considering a Cub or the Experimental class with a 180hp engine, maybe not my first choice. It's my opinion, and we can differ, but I can back up how I reach my own conclusion factually.

 

[Selvaoscura]

SpanishCub all is fine tks , no problems by my side. When you wish feel free to send me a PM and I will give you my Swiss address if you wish to have a beer together.Btw it is evident that you speak about something that is not the Shock Cub and this thread tells about the Shock.It is clear to me after reading your words, that not only you have never flown one Shock Cub but even never seen one in person.
Then even if you state that “all the Savage planes” there had some problems, so for this reason they are not the right move when you speak about bush, I can assure you that this is not my statistic reading inside our Forum and then that the Shock Cub is totally a rethinked plane and I repeat this thread speaks about the Shock. This is what I like about this company and this new product. They move forward and they change what is necessary to make better planes. I personally have a Savage Cub and I have never suffered any serious problem and looking at that pic to me it seems more that the tire had just a bead breaking, for some reasons .It could have been poor maintenaince too right?who knows.. Ask then to Courierguy why he changed his landing gear in his beautiful S/7 with an "after market" product and ask if he thinks that the plane deserves it or not for the bush.What I mean is that of course for serious amateur bush flying you need serious and more tuned planes. You can accept it or not but the Shock is a new model at 90% and works in that direction. The company for example tested 2.200 lbs droop test even with asymmetrical angles of impact (and so on one leg only), from 4 feet above the ground without even a scratch on the paint of the landing gear. They told me that the certification process for an LSA/ULM requires much less in terms of weighs and height.I am sure that my Savage Cub landing gear can't survive too much after such a drop test..and sure many other amateur planes here. This is just an example.And to confirm that this process has been well understood by most, let me remember what all German speaking-readers of AEROKURIER magazine think (readers from Switzerland-Austria and Germany) .They have voted at the "Innovation Awards 2017" the Shock Cub 10 days ago, as the first piston engine preferred LSA/ULM of the year, in front to all German and other European products and second (but very very close) only to an Electric powered plane, equipped with an engine coming by the giant Siemens (I past and copy by their website). You know after about 50.000 votes, this is the what some “normal” people/pilots think here…and I am happy to be between them even because in these 3 Countries there are already plenty of Savage planes flying around ..Now since my posting rate was before this thread about "1 post per year" in the last 9 years, leave me free to come back to my habits and let me free to see what will happen to this new product, during next months, so well before that they will produce mine with the new fantastic 915…Because if it is normal that people as me and Courierguy defend their favorite products I don't want to be judged as "just" a partisan...Peace and love Spanishcub 8)

 

[courierguy]

SpanishCub: After you've landed multiple dozens of 8, 9, and 10K sites in remote areas that have never been landed before (to the best of my knowledge) over many years, with the potential hazards inherent in doing that, while fully loaded with camping gear etc., in a particular design, you get a sense of it's suitability "for the bush" (whatever that means) or not. Your claimed 300 hours of Savage time flying from a established airstrip to another established airstrip no doubt (just a guess, what kind of flying was that...... pioneer any new mountain sites, how high and how many, have you EVER gone into a new mountain site) hardly qualifies you to pass judgment on the companies latest design as per it's bush ability.

"There's them that do and them that talk about it", or words to that effect. I did all that with round spars BTW. Since I've mentioned the great resemblance of the early Savage design to the Rans, many times, it puts me in the awkward position of defending the Savage somewhat, as the same criticism directed towards it, however obliquely, reflects on the Rans I fly. In short, don't tell ME my plane is not suitable for the bush, I know better. Disclaimer: NOT SAYING IT'S BETTER THEN A SUPER CUB, I do this solo, with no 250 lb friend and a 1/4 moose in the back.

These light planes are like the smaller pickup trucks, my little 1990 Toyota I bought new got worked HARD, and never let me down. That being said, it couldn't do what my 1 ton Dodge flatbed does. Does that make the Dodge a better truck? If you consider it has twice the fuel burn, costs more to maintain, weighs twice as much, and if the need to haul the extra weight is not there, definitely not. Too bad the three of us can't get together, look me up if you're ever in Inkom! And, I will be looking for an opportunity to personally check out the Shock Cub this summer, if at all possible.

 

[azdave]

Well, I have been following this thread with interest. I wonder why all the controversy? Surely, the Shock Cub with it's performance abilities is of great interest to many. I wonder whether the critics have ever created anything...it's not easy, it's really very hard to produce a outstanding product, especially an airplane.

Think of all the components and red tap required. And to produce a plane with such an impressive envelope and safety margin is a real accomplishment. It's always nice to have choices even if you prefer another plane or another company.

Nevertheless, as I said in my first post, congratulations to Pasquale Russo. And I salute all entrepreneurs who produce a product of achievement and problem solving in aviation whether it is an engine, a brake system, a tire, a radio, or even just a book on improving flying skills. We all may potentially benefit.

 

[RoddyM]

NEW SHOCK CUB: Congratulations to Pasquale Russo for producing what looks to be a VERY interesting plane for those who love STOL. It appears there will be various engine options up to 180 hp.

Several videos on YouTube.

Are there any Supercub members who own or have flown the Shock Cub? Not sure how many are out there yet, perhaps one or more in Alaska, a few in the lower 48 and at least one headed to Western Canada (?) Too new for an owner/pilot report? Impressive plane I’m thinking.
This aircraft, with the 912, fits into our Advanced Ultralight Category in Canada, which is a big deal because a self dec medical is all that’s required to be legal.
Roddy